Hello,
Would it be possible to include a mastodon link instead of (or
alongside?) twitter on the "people" page?
In case that's an "easy yes", I'm: https://mastodon.social/@meejah/
--
meejah
Here are our meeting logs:
http://meetbot.debian.net/tor-meeting/2019/tor-meeting.2019-09-12-17.01.html
And here is our meeting pad:
Anti-censorship work meeting pad
--------------------------------
Next meeting: Thursday September 12th 17:00 UTC
Weekly meetings, every Thursday at 17:00 UTC, in #tor-meeting at OFTC (channel is logged while meetings are in progress).
== Goal of this meeting ==
Weekly checkin about the status of anti-censorship work at Tor.
Coordinate collaboration between people/teams on anti-censorship at Tor.
== Links to Useful documents ==
* Our anti-censorship roadmap: https://dip.torproject.org/torproject/anti-censorship/roadmap/boards
* Our roadmap consists of a subset of trac tickets.
* The anti-censorship team's wiki page: https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/org/teams/AntiCensorshipTeam
* GetTor's roadmap: https://dip.torproject.org/torproject/anti-censorship/gettor/boards
* Tickets that need reviews: https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/query?status=needs_review&componen…
---------------------------
--- 12th September 2019 ---
---------------------------
== Announcements ==
*
== Discussion ==
* Any services left that aren't monitored or restarted on crash/reboot?
* Set up systemd user script for GetTor (based on <https://help.torproject.org/tsa/doc/services/>)
== Actions ==
*
== Interesting links ==
* https://google.github.io/eng-practices/review/reviewer/
* Google's guide on how to do code reviews. Worth a skim. My personal take-aways:
* Make sure that patches improve the health of the existing code. They won't be perfect.
* "One business day is the maximum time it should take to respond to a code review request (i.e. first thing the next morning)"
* However, never interrupt your focused work to do a code review.
== Updates ==
FORMAT!
Name:
This week:
- What you worked on this week.
Next week:
- What you are planning to work on next week (related to anti-censorship work).
Help with:
- Something you may need help with.
hiro: (2019-09-09)(gettor days are Thursday - snippets https://dip.torproject.org/snippets)
- gettor was down due to a VM reboot. Phw added a systemd script to reboot the service.
- add archive.org
- add gdrive
- edit ansible scripts
- edit scripts to upload files to various distribution endpoints
Next week
- reach out to irl about sending gettor stats to metrics
- include reviews from code and website changes
- review specs: are specs up-to-date? should we change something in the specs?
- review docs: write documentation for web site and ansible playbooks.
Help with:
- probably more reviews.
hiro: (2019-09-02)(gettor days are Thursday - snippets https://dip.torproject.org/snippets)
- Coded ansible recipes for gettor so that the service can be easily maintained by more people: https://dip.torproject.org/torproject/anti-censorship/gettor-project/gettor…
- Fixing some issues about git history taking too much space quota on gitlab and github
Next week
- use archive.org as new distribution endpoint: upload files to archive.org
- reach out to irl about sending gettor stats to metrics
- review specs: are specs up-to-date? should we change something in the specs?
- review docs: write documentation for web site and ansible playbooks.
Help with:
- waiting to be told that's fine to upload files to archive.org? Can we start?
- review new website. New website should be reviewed. https://dip.torproject.org/torproject/anti-censorship/gettor-project/gettor…
phw:
This week (2019-09-12):
* Compiled set of private bridges (and distribution instructions) for NGO
* Set up private monit instance to monitor these bridges from my laptop
* https://mmonit.com/monit/ (the tool is really neat!)
* Updated our obfs4 docker image to use Debian buster
* Worked with new obfs4 bridge operators, many of which had troubles setting it up
* Most had obsolete Tor versions; one from Ubuntu 12.04 (!)
* RACECAR meeting about obfs4 improvements
* Experimenting with libFTE to look like "a protocol with structure"
* Many research questions remain
* Experimenting with an "entropy reducer" that can survive high-entropy filters
* More work remains to be done for flow obfuscator
* Reviewed GetTor website changes
* Wrote systemd user script to automatically resurrect GetTor when it crashes
* Merged #28533 and released BridgeDB 0.8.1 (contains two usability fixes)
* Reviewed revisions for #31407
* Decided to rsync BridgeDB metrics to CollecTor instead of exposing them over web server (#19332)
Next week:
* BridgeDB fixes
* E.g., ridiculously outdated requirements.txt
* Make progress with obfs4 improvements
* Figure out how to reduce per-packet entropy
Help with:
* https://bugs.torproject.org/19332#comment:20
* https://bugs.torproject.org/31692
Gaba: (updated September 12th)
Last week ():
* grant writing meeting
This week (planned):
*
ahf
Last week:
- Worked on #28930
This week:
- Finished refactoring parts of #28930. Trying to figure out if we should begin the discussion on how PT's can report back on bootstrap info.
- Continued to work on a tool to convert Trac tickets into Gitlab tickets.
cecylia (cohosh): last updated 2019-09-12
Last week (holiday on Monday):
- reviews (gettor and bridgedb)
- looked into #31425 a bit more
- grant writing meeting
- worked a bit on #29207
- upstream patch for pion/webrtc
This week:
- make a patch for the proxy---broker communication (#29207)
- wrap up pion/webrtc changes and windows build ( #28942 and #25483)
- snowflake dogfood
- continue work on sequencing layer (#29206)?
- revisit snowflake reachability scripts, check status of tests, and enhance (#30368)
- review of gettor metrics work (https://dip.torproject.org/torproject/anti-censorship/gettor-project/gettor…)
- review #19332 and #31692
Help with:
- review of progress on sequencing layer (#29206)
catalyst:
week of 09/05 (actual):
- reviews
- sponsor31 reporting and planning
week of 09/12 (planned):
- reviews
- sponsor31 reporting and planning
- sponsor31 architecture documentation etc
- gitlab migration planning
- coding style discussion
arlolra: 2019-08-29
Last week:
- merged #30310
- helped with some review
Next week:
- add a build step / documentation for code reuse in cupcake
- make an attempt at #31391
Help with:
-
dcf: 2019-09-12
Last week:
- started review of sequencing layer (#29206)
- raised the file descriptor limit in the broker (#31425)
Next week:
- review Snowflake sequencing layer (#29206)
- archive test pion builds from #28942
- Turbo Tunnel prototyping
Help with:
- redeploy meek-azure bridge for Go net/http DoS vulnerability (#31455)
- needs attention from inf0 at Team Cymru (dcf and phw have sent email)
Notes for SEPTEMBER 5 2019:
MAIN DISCUSSION ITEMS:
+ Nextcloud: who makes the decision on which route/option to go? Anarcat and his team?
- Tor have its own NC instance, and to migrate to that one
- Tor continues using the 'shared' NC one of riseup.
- Riseup setup a NC instance only for Tor and maintain it
- Riseup setup a NC instance only for Tor that is maintained by Tor sysadmin team
Discussion: sysadmin team has a lot to maintain now, NC might be a stretch in the short term but makes sense in the long term; another option is to let rise maintain it, though it would be hard to extract our stuff in the future; we need a migration plan to move storm to rise up and also an exit strategy out of riseup in the future; anarcat will bring it up in next TPI meeting;
+ Gus and Pili would like to start sharing the Partnership agreement with partners/Sponsor 9.
Discussion: We passed it along to Julius and Wendy for comments; Isa will pass it along to SIDA for review/comments.
+ We should confirm/clarify what counts as a trademark violation see: https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-project/2019-January/002186.html
Discussion: People think the line is if someone is making money out of our trademark; Nick suggests we talk to lawyers about it so we don't lose our trademark; Isa suggests linux foundation, EFF, or OTF Legal Lab might be able to help w/ a lawyer for this; Isa will do a review of the issue and start drafting a letter for what we need.
https://2019.www.torproject.org/docs/trademark-faq.html
+ Other Discussion: People asking about an org chart, and it turns out, Bekeela just made one! We'll find a place to post the anonymized one.
--------------->8
INDIVIDUAL NOTES:
Steph
1. Docshackathon and bridges promotion
2. Posts: Browser fingerprinting and Orfox sunsetting. Next: Onion Browser, Tor trainings
3. Coordinating Bitcoin Magazine podcast — After talking with Isa, they want to do a longer series on Tor with a few people. Another interview in the works.
4. Locking down on a several page fundraising deck for next week
5. Preparing for the EOY fundraising campaign, mapping out content and messaging
6. Pitched an exclusive story idea to a journalist
7. Items on deck: next demystifying dark web page edit, community portal review, relay campaign
Gaba
1. Back from emergency surgery and recovering.
2. Nextcloud: not sure if we still need to have this discussion here or anarcat and team has all the info to move forward.
3. Scalability proposals moving forward.
Georg
1. Work on Tor Browser releases (the alpha should be based on ESR 68 now)
Nick
1. Transferred apple dev credential to Pili. Successfully? Let's see!
Sarah
1. Attended cryptocurrency and nonprofit meetup at GivingBlock in DC.
2. EOY campaign coordination.
3. Major donor meetings and event coordination.
4. Updates to donate pages.
Philipp
1. Worked with new bridge operators as part of our obfs4 bridge campaign. Fixed a bunch of issues in our docs.
2. Published a simple prototype for obfs4 flow obfuscation.
3. Coordinated GetTor progress among anti-censorship team.
4. Published monthly anti-censorship report.
5. More work on pion WebRTC library for snowflake and proxy/broker protocol.
Gus
1. Bridges campaign: reach out some partners EDRi and Access Now (probably they will run some bridges for us)
2. Frontdesk: RT backlog: answered +700 RT tickets. There are still ~170 remaining (mostly bridges and orbot)
3. DocsHackathon - busy week! Going well, a lot of pull requests <3
4. Pushing more content to Community Portal
Pili
1. OTF Proposal for Browser Team submitted
2. Working on DRL Proposal for Community/UX
3. Docs Hackathon is running this week. Closed 30 tickets so far across Tor Manual, Support Portal and tpo.org
4. Moving forward with website maintenance plans
5. S27 Monthly report was submitted last week.
6. Looking into participating in other volunteer programs such as Hacktoberfest, Outreachy and Google Code-in
7. Finally transitioning last Orfox users to TBA!!! Thanks to Guardian Project and everyone else who has helped to push this over the line.
8. Mostly AFK next week, travelling, holidays and speaking at a conference
Antonela
1. End-month duties
2. The #docshackathon is doing great! helping on what is needed
3. Meetings this week and next week in ny
isabela:
1. f2f sync with Nah (UX research contractor) about how Tor works and our projects
2. f2f sync w/ Antonela (on Friday)
3. prep work /w Sarah and Beth for my meetings w/ donors this coming week
4. finishing preparations for audit (me and Sue will be in Seattle starting this coming week for our annual auditing process)
5. prep work for YE campaign, closing up BugSmashFund campaign
6. coordinating a talk in Brazil at USP São Carlos, at the end of the month
Erin
1. So close to being done with handbook!
2. Organizing personnel files in anticipation of audit
3. General HR stuff
anarcat
1. back from vacation, handling backlog
Hi!
You can read today's meeting log here:
http://meetbot.debian.net/tor-meeting/2019/tor-meeting.2019-09-12-14.59.html
Below is the agenda from the meeting pad:
- can we send notes (notes from the pad and link to log) at the end
of the meeting to the tor-project mailing list?
- scalability proposal
- Roadmap - how are we doing? (gaba)
https://trello.com/b/Mu5fYg53/tor-metrics-roadmap
Next meeting: September 19th
cheers,
gaba
--
Project Manager: Network, Anti-Censorship and Metrics teams
gaba at torproject.org
she/her are my pronouns
GPG Fingerprint EE3F DF5C AD91 643C 21BE 8370 180D B06C 59CA BD19
Hello!
We held our weekly Tor Browser meeting yesterday in #tor-meeting2. Here
is the IRC log:
http://meetbot.debian.net/tor-meeting2/2019/tor-meeting2.2019-09-09-17.30.l…
and below are the notes from our meeting pad:
Discussion:
- Do we have an estimate of how many Tor Browser alpha users there
are? (mcs) (GeKo: not really. but we could try to find out. boklm
volunteered to file a ticket for the metrics folks)
GeKo:
Last week:
- sent monthly report to tor-project (this time for July and
August)
- helped with the alpha release (so far nothing exploded, good!)
- helped getting 8.5.6 out (looked into #31616 over the weekend)
- made progress on #31538: it feels we are close to tracking
the issue down, wish me luck ;)
- made progress on #30429
- set up macOS system for #30126
- wrote patches for #31450, #31621, #27493 and started to work
on #31584
- reviewed #28822, #31598, #30384, #31457, #31562
This week:
- Bug 30126: Apple notarization
- Bug 31538: Windows reproducibility
- moar reviews
- #31597 (Mozilla bug review for bugs squashed between Firefox
61-68)
- finish missing pieces for #30429
tjr
- Worked on the wasm bug:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1576254
- Think I have it close enough to finish this week.
mcs and brade:
Last week:
- #31457 (disable per-installation profiles).
- Created patch which has been reviewed and merged by gk
(thanks).
- #30126 (Make Tor Browser on macOS compatible with Apple's
notarization).
- Discussed next steps with gk.
- Installed macOS 10.15 beta to a USB hard drive to use for
testing.
This week/upcoming:
- #31607 (App menu items stop working).
- #31491 (clean up the old meek http helper browser profiles).
- Testing for #30126 (Make Tor Browser on macOS compatible with
Apple's notarization).
- Work on other tbb-9.0-must-alpha tickets as time permits,
- Reminder: we have vacation planned for the week of September 23rd.
boklm:
Last week:
- Helped publish new releases
- Worked on #31448 (gold and lld break linking 32bit Linux
bundles we need to resort to bfd)
- Reviewed https://github.com/torproject/support/issues/12
- Started looking at #31646 (Update abicheck to require newer
libstdc++.so.6)
This week:
- Some reviews:
- #31596 (Bump mingw-w64 version to pick up fix for #31567),
- #31450 (Still use GCC for 64bit Linux debug builds after switch
to 68 ESR),
- #31621 (Fix node bug that makes large writes to stdout fail),
- #31641 (Provide link to Tor Browser for Android alpha on our
alpha download page)
- Work on #31448 (gold and lld break linking 32bit Linux bundles
we need to resort to bfd) and other tbb-9.0-must-alpha toolchain tickets
- Open a ticket to add alpha users update pings to metrics graphs
sisbell:
Last Week:
- #31564: Android bundles not reproducible - poor google
documentation, key repo with google vendor code not available is blocker
for this approach. Tested out apktool as way forward. Initial results
look good, Any objections to moving forward with this? (GeKo: sounds
good, but let's use the apktool as it comes with Debian as that saves us
time)
This week
- #31564: Add decompile/recompile of resource apks to project build.
- #31568: Gradle how-to
- open tickets for tor-android-service patches
pospeselr:
Last week:
- browser privacy meetup, will post my notes somewhere later today
This week:
- pick back up #31286
- review build for y'all to see the mocked UX
- rebase to latest, assuming I can get the local linux build
toolchain working
acat:
Last week:
- Fix onboarding regressions + address review comments (#28822).
- #31562 - The circuit display is not visible on error pages in
Tor Browser based on ESR68
- #31575 - Firefox is phoning home during start-up in Tor
Browser based on ESR 68 (needs review)
- #30662 - Make sure about:newtab is blank (needs review)
- #31601 - Don't let Mozilla recommend extensions again (needs
review)
This week:
- #26345 - Finish Disable tracking protection UI in FF67-esr
- There are still requests to mozillla (apart from
activity-stream), investigate. (tjr: what're they?) (acat: i don't
remember, I think the stack trace of the request pointed to some Updater
telemetry file? But it came from RemoteSettingsClient.js, so probably
worth checking for all usages of that). (tjr: Ah, this is Kinto/Remote
Settings. Could be addon/gpu blocklist, or onecrl, or crlite, or
intermediate preloading... many things use remote settings.)
- Work on other tbb-9.0-must-alpha tickets.
- Investigate if serviceworkers can still see localized msgs in
30683.
- Maybe do a bit of mozilla upstream backlog (e.g. 30683).
Georg
Here are the minutes from today's sysadmin meeting.
# Roll call: who's there and emergencies
Anarcat, Hiro, Linus, Peter, and Roger attending.
# What has everyone been up to
## anarcat
### July
* catchup with Stockholm and tasks
* ipsec puppet module completion (should we publish it?)
* fixed civicrm tunneling issues, hopefully ([#30912][])
* published blog post with updates from the previous email:
<https://anarc.at/blog/2019-07-30-pgp-flooding-attacks/>
* struggled with administrative/accounting stuff
* contacted greenhost about DNS: they have anycast DNS with an API,
but not GeoDNS, what should we do?
* RT access granting and audit ([#31249][], [#31248][]), various LDAP
access tickets and cleaned up gettor group
* [backup documentation][] ([#30880][])
* tested bacula and postgresq restore procedures, specifically, you
might want to get familiar with those before a catastrophe
* cleaned up services inventory ([#31261][]) all in
<https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/org/operations/services>
now
* worked on getting ganeti into puppet with weasel
[#31261]: https://bugs.torproject.org/31261
[#30880]: https://bugs.torproject.org/30880
[backup documentation]: https://help.torproject.org/tsa/howto/backup/
[#31248]: https://bugs.torproject.org/31248
[#31249]: https://bugs.torproject.org/31249
[#30912]: https://bugs.torproject.org/30912
### August
* on vacation the last week, it was awesome
* published a summary of the KNOB attack against Bluetooth (TL;DR:
don't trust your BT keyboards)
<https://anarc.at/blog/2019-08-19-is-my-bluetooth-device-insecure/>
* ganeti merge almost completed
* first part of the hiera transition completed, yaaaaay!
* tested a puppet validation hook ([#31226][]) you should install it
locally, but our codebase is maybe not ready to run this
server-side
* retired labs.tpo ([#24956][])
* retired nova.tpo ([#29888][]) and updated the host retirement docs,
especially the hairy procedure where we don't have remote console
to wipe disks
[#29888]: https://bugs.torproject.org/29888
[#24956]: https://bugs.torproject.org/24956
[#31226]: https://bugs.torproject.org/31226
## hiro - Collecting all my snippets here https://dip.torproject.org/users/hiro/snippets
* catchup with Stockholm discussions and future tasks
* fixed some prometheus puppet-fu
* some website dev and maintenance
* some blog fixes and updates
* gitlab updates and migration planning
* gettor service admin via ansible
## weasel, for september, actually
* Finished doing ganeti stuff. We have at least one VM now, see next
point
* We have a loghost now, it's called loghost01. There is a
/var/log/hosts that has logs per host, and some /var/log/*all*
files that contain log lines from all the hosts. We don't do
backups of this host's /var/log because it's big and all the data
should be elsewhere anyway.
* started doing new onionoo infra, see [#31659][].
* debian point releases
[#31659]: https://bugs.torproject.org/31659
# What we're up to next
## anarcat
* figure out the next steps in hiera refactoring ([#30020][])
* ops report card, see below ([#30881][])
* LDAP sudo transition plan ([#6367][])
* followup with snowflake + TPA? ([#31232][])
* send root@ emails to RT, and start using it more for more things?
([#31242][])
* followup with email services improvements ([#30608][])
* continue prometheus module merges
* followup on SVN decomissionning ([#17202][])
[#17202]: https://bugs.torproject.org/17202
[#30608]: https://bugs.torproject.org/30608
[#31242]: https://bugs.torproject.org/31242
[#31232]: https://bugs.torproject.org/31232
[#6367]: https://bugs.torproject.org/6367
[#30881]: https://bugs.torproject.org/30881
[#30020]: https://bugs.torproject.org/30020
## hiro
* on vacation first two weeks of August
* followup and planning for search.tp.o
* websites and gettor taks
* more prometheus and puppet
* review services documentation
* monitor anti-censorship services
* followup with gettor tasks
* followup with greenhost
## weasel
* want to restructure how we do web content distribution:
* Right now, we rsync the static content to ~5-7 nodes that
directly offer http to users and/or serve as backends for fastly.
* The big number of rsync targets makes updating somewhat slow at
times (since we want to switch to the new version atomicly).
* I'd like to change that to ship all static content to 2, maybe 3,
hosts.
* These machines would not be accessed directly by users but would
serve as backends for a) fastly, and b) our own varnish/haproxy
frontends.
* split onionoo backends (that run the java stuff) from frontends
(that run haproxy/varnish). The backends might also want to run a
varnish. Also, retire the stunnel and start doing ipsec between
frontends and backends. (that's already started, cf. [#31659][])
* start moving VMs to gnt-fsn
## ln5
* help deciding things about a tor nextcloud instance
* help getting such a tor nextcloud instance up and running
* help migrating data from the nc instance at riseup into a tor
instance
* help migrating data from storm into a tor instance
# Answering the 'ops report card'
See <https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/30881>
anarcat introduced the project and gave a heads up that this might
mean more ticket and organizational changes. for example, we don't
define "what's an emergency" and "what's supported" clearly
enough. anarcat will use this process as a prioritization tool as
well.
# Email next steps
Brought up "the plan" to Vegas: <https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/org/meetings/2019Stockholm/No…>
Response was: why don't we just give everyone LDAP accounts? Everyone
has PGP...
We're still uncomfortable with deploying the new email service but
that was agreed upon in Stockholm. We don't see a problem with
granting more people LDAP access, provided vegas or others can provide
support and onboarding.
# Do we want to run Nextcloud?
See also the discussion in <https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/31540>
The alternatives:
A. Hosted on Tor Project infrastructure, operated by Tor Project.
B. Hosted on Tor Project infrastructure, operated by Riseup.
C. Hosted on Riseup infrastructure, operated by Riseup.
We're good with B or C for now. We can't give them root so B would
need to be running as UID != 0, but they prefer to handle the machine
themselves, so we'll go with C for now.
# Other discussions
weasel played with prom/grafana to diagnose onionoo stuff, and found
interesting things. Wonders if we can hookup varnish, anarcat will
investigate yet.
we don't want to keep storm running if we switch to nextcloud, make a
plan.
# Next meeting
october 7th 1400UTC
# Metrics of the month
I figured I would bring back this tradition that Linus had going before
I started doing the reports, but that I omitted because of lack of time
and familiarity with the infrastructure. Now I'm a little more
comfortable so I made a script in the wiki which polls numbers from
various sources and makes a nice overview of what our infra looks
like. Access and transfer rates are over the last 30 days.
* hosts in Puppet: 76, LDAP: 79, Prometheus exporters: 121
* number of apache servers monitored: 32, hits per second: 168
* number of self-hosted nameservers: 5, mail servers: 10
* pending upgrades: 0, reboots: 0
* average load: 0.56, memory available: 357.18 GiB/934.53 GiB, running processes: 441
* bytes sent: 126.79 MB/s, received: 96.13 MB/s
Those metrics should be taken with a grain of salt: many of those might
not mean what you think they do, and some others might be gross
mischaracterizations as well. I hope to improve those reports as time
goes on.
Feedback, is, of course, very welcome.
--
Antoine Beaupré
torproject.org system administration
Hi,
we've just published the Tails report for August:
https://tails.boum.org/news/report_2019_08/
I'm attaching a slightly cleaned up HTML version,
for those who prefer to read this offline.
Cheers,
--
intrigeri
Hi!
You can read today's meeting log at
http://meetbot.debian.net/tor-meeting/2019/tor-meeting.2019-09-09-17.00.html
Below are the contents of our meeting pad:
= Network team meeting pad! =
This week's team meeting is at Monday 9 September 1700 UTC on
#tor-meeting on OFTC.
September-October schedule:
* Monday 9 September 1700 UTC
* Monday 16 September 1700 UTC
* Monday 23 September 1700 UTC
* Wednesday 2 October 2300 UTC
* Monday 7 October 1700 UTC
* Monday 14 October 1700 UTC
* Monday 21 October 1700 UTC
* Monday 28 October 1700 UTC
Welcome to our meeting!
First meeting each month: Wednesday at 2300 UTC
Other meetings each month: Mondays at 1700 UTC until 3 November 2019,
when daylight saving time changes
On #tor-meeting on OFTC.
(This channel is logged while meetings are in progress.) (See
https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-project/2017-September/001459.ht…
for background.)
Want to participate? Awesome! Here's what to do:
1. If you have updates, enter them below, under your name.
2. If you see anything you want to talk about in your updates, put
them in boldface!
3. Show up to the IRC meeting and say hi!
After each week's meetings, the contents of this pad will be sent to
tor-project @ lists.torproject.org.
After that is done, the pad can be used for the next week.
== Previous notes ==
(Search the tor-project mailing list archive for older notes.)
12 August: https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-project/2019-August/002431.html
19 August: https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-project/2019-August/002435.html
26 August: https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-project/2019-August/002442.html
4 September: https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-project/2019-September/002465.ht…
== Stuff to do every week =
* Coming up: the 0.4.2 release status page.
See https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/org/teams/NetworkTeam/CoreTor…
(This page automatically shows the latest trac ticket status.)
* Let's check and update the roadmap.
What's done, and what's coming up?
We're using a kanban board:
https://dip.torproject.org/torproject/core/tor/boards
* Check reviewer assignments! How reviews from last week worked? Any blocker?
Here are the outstanding reviews, oldest first, including sbws
https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/query?status=needs_review&componen…
== Reminders ==
* Remember to "/me status: foo" at least once daily.
* Remember that our current code reviews should be done by end-of-week.
* Make sure you are in touch with everybody with whom you are doing
work for the next releases.
* Remember to fill up the 'actual point' field when you close a
ticket. We need those to calculate velocity.
* Check other's people call for help in their entries.
* When you are overloaded, it is ok to say "no" to things.
* And it is ok to reschedule things.
-------------------------------
---- 9 September 2019
-------------------------------
== Announcements ==
On September there is a technical writer (Swati) from Google Season of
Docs starting to work with us on rewriting the Tor manual page. She is
participating in the network team meetings. Her project:
https://developers.google.com/season-of-docs/docs/participants/project-tor
We are moving the kanban board from storm into
https://dip.torproject.org/torproject/core/tor/boards . This will help
lead a plan for migration into dip.torproject.org.
People working on sponsor 31 will meet for a second time on Tuesday
September 10 at 2300 UTC. We will talk in #tor-meeting and the agenda
is here:https://pad.riseup.net/p/IRjuGtQkWNKZLc7qskDb
Remember that 0.4.2.x-alpha freezes on 15 September. For large
features, the freeze date is 8 September.
Bug Smash Fund campaign has been on:
https://blog.torproject.org/tors-bug-smash-fund-help-tor-smash-all-bugs
The idea is that this will be funding non-sponsor bugs. If you are
working on ticket that is not sponsored please tag it with
BugSmashFund keyword.
Remember to look at transition to gitlab
https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-project/2019-September/002458.ht…
== Discussion ==
* When is the next time origin/master will be open?
- (Some non-critical circpad things should go in somewhere, but
don't need 042)
* Some of our needs_review tickets are getting a bit old, should we
give them to other people?
== Recommended links ==
"Testing the boundaries of collaboration"
https://increment.com/testing/testing-the-boundaries-of-collaboration/
== Updates ==
Name:
Week of XYZ (planned):
- What you planned for last week.
Week of XYZ (actual):
- What you did last week.
Week of ABC (planned):
- What you're planning to do this week.
Help with:
- Something you may need help with.
PLEASE DO NOT BULK-DELETE THE OLD ENTRIES!
Leave the "Planned" parts!
Leave the parts for last week and this week!
gaba: (updated on september 4th)
Last week (actual):
. s31
This week (planned):
. s31 report
. scalability funding proposal
Help with:
teor: (online first week of the month, offline at the usual meeting time)
Week of 2 September (actual):
Urgent:
-
Roadmap:
- Sponsor 31 config.c reviews
- Sponsor 31 retrospective and planning
Other:
- #31549 review - old relays out of the consensus
- #31664 triage - guard number config
- quick tools and quick fixes that make development easier
Week of 9 September (planned):
Urgent:
-
Roadmap:
- Sponsor 31 config.c refactor reviews
- finish add tor controller trace logging to diagnose stem
hangs (#30901)
- try nickm's suggested a simpler implementation
- split off bugs I found while writing the control trace code
Other:
- team policies: commit bit and roles?
Week of 9 September (actual):
Urgent:
-
Roadmap:
- Sponsor 31 config.c refactor
Other:
- bug smash on logging bugs #31594 and children (maybe
some of these are bugs on other sponsored work)
- bug triage
- emails
Nick:
Week of 2 September (planned):
- Get 31240 merged if possible, and if it is, solve *all*
pending 29211 backlog issues.
- S31 Meeting on Tuesday 2300 UTC (rescheduled)
- S31 work TBD, pending division of tasks on Tuesday
- Start removing work from 0.4.2 milestone, and tagging other
work with must/should/can.
- Investigate 31570 (mmap crash in 0.4.1) unless somebody else
picks it up.
- Reviews and merges.
- Coordinate role transition plans with ahf and gaba.
Week of 2 September (actual):
- Resolved several pending 29211 (config refactor) issues
(31532 31529 31624 31627 31629)
- Took on additional review, merge stuff.
- S31 meeting (initial)
- Began 0.4.2 triage
- Came up with a patch for 31570 (mmap crash)
- Review and merge
- worked on 31578 (practracker vs make dist)
- Added proposals 306, 307 to repository
- Began proposal for adding proposals more regularly.
- Made myself a checklist to follow before putting things in
needs_review.
Week of 9 September (planned):
- Merge big pending patches. (Sorry asn & dgoulet! :/ )
- Respond to questions on S31 pad before tuesday
- Another S31 meeting
- Work on circuitpadding doc merge stuff.
- Start a PETS review
- Work on more 29211 followup issues
- More 0.4.2 triage.
Mike:
Week of 8/26 (planned):
- Catch up on mail/tickets
- Work on circpad dev doc
Week of 8/26 (actual):
- Catch up on mail/tickets
- Finished rough draft of circpad dev doc; mailed to researchers
Week of 9/4 (planned):
- Funding proposal catchup + direction
- Firefox ESR new feature and network code reviews
- Fold in researcher feedback on circpad dev doc
Need help with/at risk of dropping this month:
- Not doing any code reviews this month, unless on circpad
patches. Got enough for Tor Browser
- Circpad doc followup/fold-in? (asn?)
- Firefox ESR code review
- (I am working on this, but unlikely to finish it this
month at this rate of interruption+distraction)
- Firefox new feature review
- Funding proposal review, meetings, coordination,
cross-checking estimations, strategy, etc.
- Deep-thought-required research project followup
- (Google masque, BGP, ECN, Rob's bw experiments, Dennis's
Mozilla video, etc etc...)
- Relay community drive/mgmt (and related LTS herding)
catalyst:
week of 08/26 (2019-W35) (planned):
- reviews
- investigate some Jenkins failures
- get #30984 ready for review (key-value lines for control
replies) -- still documenting some things
week of 08/26 (2019-W35) (actual):
- reviews
- made some progress on getting #30984 ready for review --
cleaned up some memory management issues, improved some documentation
- chasing spurious chutney failures; they turn out to be
somehow sandbox-related? thanks to teor for helping diagnose
week of 09/02 (2019-W36) (planned):
- TPI holiday 09/02
- sponsor31 check-in retrospective (and follow up)
- reviews
- more work on #30984
week of 09/02 (2019-W36) (actual):
- TPI holiday 09/02
- reviews
- sponsor31 check-in
week of 09/09 (2019-W37) (planned):
- more sponsor31 reporting and check-in
- reviews
- look at gitlab migration plan doc
- #30984
need help with:
- please help take a look at some jenkins failures:
* tor-ci-linux-0.2.9 (old-ish)
https://jenkins.torproject.org/job/tor-ci-linux-0.2.9/292/console --
this looks like a travis failure. There's a java exception caused by a
timeout, and no builders actually happen.
* tor-ci-linux-0.4.1 (new-ish)
https://jenkins.torproject.org/job/tor-ci-linux-0.4.1/ARCHITECTURE=amd64,SU…
Buster amd64 is failing with what appears to be
08:50:53 08:50:53 FAIL: src/test/test_workqueue_efd.sh
08:50:53 ====================================
08:50:53 08:50:53 Illegal instruction
08:50:53 FAIL src/test/test_workqueue_efd.sh (exit status: 132)
I wonder if this is transient, or if it is a real
problem? We didn't change this code any time recently.
* tor-ci-linux-master-clang (new-ish)
https://jenkins.torproject.org/job/tor-ci-linux-master-clang/3640/ARCHITECT…
This is only happening on i686 sid, and it is a compiler segfault.
This makes me think it is a bug in the clang package in debian
unstable.
* tor-ci-mingwcross-* (old-ish)
https://jenkins.torproject.org/job/tor-ci-mingwcross-master/2499/ARCHITECTU…
This looks like a misconfiguration to me -- it seems to be complaining
about not having found a zlib package maybe?
* tor-ci-windows-master (old?)
https://jenkins.torproject.org/job/tor-ci-windows-master/78/console
This looks like it could be a real bug: a unit test is
failing. It's in "slow/process/callbacks" -- I believe ahf knows that
code best.
asn:
[Might be for dinner at the time of the meeting]
Week of 02/09 (planned):
- Hyper focusing on onionbalance+stem #31369.
- The goal is to be able to encode and decode v3 descriptors by
the end of next week.
- Reviews/merges as per the usual
Week of 02/09 (actual):
- Worked on #31369
- Created stem module that encodes/decodes ed25519 certs
- Started work on encoding descriptors
- Pending feedback on #31369 by atagar.
- Created another stem onionbalance ticket #31648 and started work on it
while waiting for atagar feedback on #31369
- Some more findings on old #28970 bugfix ticket.
- Did more triaging and updated points on onionbalance master ticket (#29998)
Week of 09/09 (actual):
- More work on stem side of onionbalance (#31369 and #31648)
ahf:
Week of 2nd of September (planned):
- Returned from long vacation of BornHack and CCCamp.
- Harvest reporting.
- Reading mailing lists, meeting minutes, catch up on
community council things, look at Trac and tor.git changes of August.
- Hacking on #5304.
- Going to be away Thursday (around Friday) to attend a
conference in DK and talk about Tor at the engineers union here in DK.
Week of 2nd of September (actually):
- Harvest reporting.
- Read mailing lists, meeting minutes, cought up on community
council things, look at Trac and tor.git changes of August.
- Hacking on #5304. <gaba: it says that is merge ready , is
that completed?>
- Did a talk on Tor at the engineering union in DK.
Week of 9th of September (planned):
- Solve my laptop situation.
- Work on #5304 and #28930.
- Work with Nick and Gaba on which tasks to takeover.
dgoulet:
Week of 02/09 (actual):
- Most of my time has been on #30200 parent tasks working on building and
running an onion service health tool (#28841).
- From the above, several tickets have been opened, see the child tickets
of #30200.
- I've mostly worked on the service side health. I've moved now on writing
the tool analysis part for the client side.
- One ticket I opened which was needed for my development branch in #30200
that affects the wider tor (and found a bug): #31608. It is good that we
are all awayre of this imo.
Week of 09/09 (planned):
- Continue making sure #31549 is on track and doesn't stall.
- Help write blog post about the above ^ in order to be as loud as we can
about this big change in the network.
- Continue on #30200 to dig into client side behavior (s27 stuff).
Hi!
Last week's meeting logs can be read at
http://meetbot.debian.net/tor-meeting/2019/tor-meeting.2019-09-04-22.59.html
Below is the state of last week's pad, from our pad history.
= Network team meeting pad! =
This week's team meeting is at Wednesday 4 September 2300 UTC on
#tor-meeting on OFTC.
September-October schedule:
* Wednesday 4 September 2300 UTC
* Monday 9 September 1700 UTC
* Monday 16 September 1700 UTC
* Monday 23 September 1700 UTC
* Wednesday 2 October 2300 UTC
* Monday 7 October 1700 UTC
* Monday 14 October 1700 UTC
* Monday 21 October 1700 UTC
* Monday 28 October 1700 UTC
Welcome to our meeting!
First meeting each month: Wednesday at 2300 UTC
Other meetings each month: Mondays at 1700 UTC until 3 November 2019,
when daylight saving time changes
On #tor-meeting on OFTC.
(This channel is logged while meetings are in progress.) (See
https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-project/2017-September/001459.ht…
for background.)
Want to participate? Awesome! Here's what to do:
1. If you have updates, enter them below, under your name.
2. If you see anything you want to talk about in your updates, put
them in boldface!
3. Show up to the IRC meeting and say hi!
After each week's meetings, the contents of this pad will be sent to
tor-project @ lists.torproject.org.
After that is done, the pad can be used for the next week.
== Previous notes ==
(Search the tor-project mailing list archive for older notes.)
12 August: https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-project/2019-August/002431.html
19 August: https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-project/2019-August/002435.html
26 August: https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-project/2019-August/002442.html
== Stuff to do every week =
* Let's check the 0.4.1 release status page.
See https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/org/teams/NetworkTeam/CoreTor…
(This page automatically shows the latest trac ticket status.)
* Coming up: the 0.4.2 release status page.
See https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/org/teams/NetworkTeam/CoreTor…
(This page automatically shows the latest trac ticket status.)
* Let's check and update the roadmap.
What's done, and what's coming up?
We're using a kanban board:
https://dip.torproject.org/torproject/core/tor/boards
* Check reviewer assignments! How reviews from last week worked? Any blocker?
Here are the outstanding reviews, oldest first, including sbws
https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/query?status=needs_review&componen…
== Reminders ==
* Remember to "/me status: foo" at least once daily.
* Remember that our current code reviews should be done by end-of-week.
* Make sure you are in touch with everybody with whom you are doing
work for the next releases.
* Remember to fill up the 'actual point' field when you close a
ticket. We need those to calculate velocity.
* Check other's people call for help in their entries.
* When you are overloaded, it is ok to say "no" to things.
* And it is ok to reschedule things.
-------------------------------
---- 4 September 2019
-------------------------------
== Announcements ==
On September there is a technical writer from Google Season of Docs
starting to work with us on rewriting the Tor manual page. She will be
participating in the network team meetings. Her project:
https://developers.google.com/season-of-docs/docs/participants/project-tor
We are moving the kanban board from storm into
https://dip.torproject.org/torproject/core/tor/boards . This will help
lead a plan for migration into dip.torproject.org.
People working on sponsor 31 will meet for a second time on Tuesday
September 10 at 2300 UTC. We will talk in #tor-meeting and the agenda
is here:https://pad.riseup.net/p/IRjuGtQkWNKZLc7qskDb
Remember that 0.4.2.x-alpha freezes on 15 September. For large
features, the freeze date is 8 September.
Bug Smash Fund campaign has been on:
https://blog.torproject.org/tors-bug-smash-fund-help-tor-smash-all-bugs
The idea is that this will be funding non-sponsor bugs. If you are
working on ticket that is not sponsored please tag it with
BugSmashFund keyword.
== Discussion ==
* We need a process for putting proposals into the torspec.git
repository, and advancing them forward. Does anybody want to write
this?
* In the meantime, should I (nickm) handle the pending 306 and 307?
{Resolution: nick adds 306 and 307 to repo, then writes a policy proposal.}
* Relatedly, we maybe need a process for making sure that proposals
eventually move from Draft to some other state, and from Open to some
other state. I believe that Teor had started writing one of these.
Now that we have a metapolicy, would you like to pick that up again?
* Alternatively, I (nickm) can do it. Alternatively, we can defer till later.
{Resolution: nick tries to do a draft.}
* When is the next time origin/master will be open?
- (Some non-critical circpad things should go in somewhere, but
don't need 042)
== Recommended links ==
Ricochet Refresh with Tor 0.3.5.8:
https://ricochetrefresh.net/
macOS 10.15 has a read-only system volume and a redesigned path structure.
Standard Unix tools shouldn't be affected, but some builds or apps might be:
https://eclecticlight.co/2019/08/21/its-time-to-test-your-scripts-against-c…
"Testing the boundaries of collaboration"
https://increment.com/testing/testing-the-boundaries-of-collaboration/
== Updates ==
Name:
Week of XYZ (planned):
- What you planned for last week.
Week of XYZ (actual):
- What you did last week.
Week of ABC (planned):
- What you're planning to do this week.
Help with:
- Something you may need help with.
PLEASE DO NOT BULK-DELETE THE OLD ENTRIES!
Leave the "Planned" parts!
Leave the parts for last week and this week!
gaba: (updated on september 4th)
Last week (actual):
. s31
This week (planned):
. s31 report
. scalability funding proposal
Help with:
teor: (online first week of the month, offline at the usual meeting time)
Week of 26 August (planned):
Urgent:
- CI monitoring
- config.c refactor code review, because we want to get it
done by the end of August
Roadmap:
- finish add tor controller trace logging to diagnose stem
hangs (#30901)
- try nickm's suggested a simpler implementation
- split off bugs I found while writing the control trace code
- finish small 0.4.1 tasks
- finish remaining code reviews, except for neel's big PR
that I will split up
- do the backports that are due after the 0.4.1.5 release,
switch hidden tags
- backport deciding
Other:
- team policies: commit bit and roles?
Week of 26 August (actual):
Urgent:
- coverity fixes for #21003, rewrote the function using
safe string functions #31549
- CI failure triage and monitoring
- CI fixes, reviews, backports
Roadmap:
- reviewed big config refactor PRs:
- #30935 - ready for merge
- #31240 - in the middle of the reviews
- Sponsor 31 retrospective preparation
- double checking follow-ups and blockers for #29211
- OnionBalance v3 crypto help
- Tor Browser macOS notarisation help
- HSv3 IPv6 and single onion service, feature parity and bug fixes
Other:
- backports after 0.4.1-stable
- add some missing tests/commit hook checks, so CI fails less often
- quick diagnostics improvements
- better backport tooling
- helping relay operators with various issues
- IPv6 exit ticket triage
- non-roadmap reviews
- bug triage
Nick:
Week of 26 August (planned):
- Revisions for 31240 (make confparse handle compound formats
and objects)
- Review and merge
- Finish 31241 (refactor conf validation), make it needs_review
- If we catch up with merge and revision on 29211: move on to 30866.
- Practracker tests (31477)
- Start early on September roadmap items, time permitting.
Week of 26 August (actual):
- Revisions on 31240, including rebase.
- Finished a version of #31241, then decided to table it until
caught up with other 29211 (config refactor) work.
- Practreacker tests (31477)
- Tried to catch up with reviews and merges
- Code diagnosis
- Fixed some shell issues
- Regressions in routerset config handling (31495)
- Regressions in disable-module-dirauth compilation (31552)
Week of 2 September (planned):
- Get 31240 merged if possible, and if it is, solve *all*
pending 29211 backlog issues.
- S31 Meeting on Tuesday 2300 UTC (rescheduled)
- S31 work TBD, pending division of tasks on Tuesday
- Start removing work from 0.4.2 milestone, and tagging other
work with must/should/can.
- Investigate 31570 (mmap crash in 0.4.1) unless somebody else
picks it up.
- Reviews and merges.
- Coordinate role transition plans with ahf and gaba.
Mike:
Week of 8/26 (planned):
- Catch up on mail/tickets
- Work on circpad dev doc
Week of 8/26 (actual):
- Catch up on mail/tickets
- Finished rough draft of circpad dev doc; mailed to researchers
Week of 9/4 (planned):
- Funding proposal catchup + direction
- Firefox ESR new feature and network code reviews
- Fold in researcher feedback on circpad dev doc
Need help with/at risk of dropping this month:
- Not doing any code reviews this month, unless on circpad
patches. Got enough for Tor Browser
- Circpad doc followup/fold-in? (asn?)
- Firefox ESR code review
- (I am working on this, but unlikely to finish it this
month at this rate of interruption+distraction)
- Firefox new feature review
- Funding proposal review, meetings, coordination,
cross-checking estimations, strategy, etc.
- Deep-thought-required research project followup
- (Google masque, BGP, ECN, Rob's bw experiments, Dennis's
Mozilla video, etc etc...)
- Relay community drive/mgmt (and related LTS herding)
catalyst:
week of 08/26 (2019-W35) (planned):
- reviews
- investigate some Jenkins failures
- get #30984 ready for review (key-value lines for control
replies) -- still documenting some things
week of 08/26 (2019-W35) (actual):
- reviews
- made some progress on getting #30984 ready for review --
cleaned up some memory management issues, improved some documentation
- chasing spurious chutney failures; they turn out to be
somehow sandbox-related? thanks to teor for helping diagnose
week of 09/02 (2019-W36) (planned):
- TPI holiday 09/02
- sponsor31 check-in retrospective (and follow up)
- reviews
- more work on #30984
need help with:
- please help take a look at some jenkins failures:
* tor-ci-linux-0.2.9 (old-ish)
https://jenkins.torproject.org/job/tor-ci-linux-0.2.9/292/console --
this looks like a travis failure. There's a java exception caused by a
timeout, and no builders actually happen.
* tor-ci-linux-0.4.1 (new-ish)
https://jenkins.torproject.org/job/tor-ci-linux-0.4.1/ARCHITECTURE=amd64,SU…
Buster amd64 is failing with what appears to be
08:50:53 08:50:53 FAIL: src/test/test_workqueue_efd.sh
08:50:53 ====================================
08:50:53 08:50:53 Illegal instruction
08:50:53 FAIL src/test/test_workqueue_efd.sh (exit status: 132)
I wonder if this is transient, or if it is a real
problem? We didn't change this code any time recently.
* tor-ci-linux-master-clang (new-ish)
https://jenkins.torproject.org/job/tor-ci-linux-master-clang/3640/ARCHITECT…
This is only happening on i686 sid, and it is a compiler segfault.
This makes me think it is a bug in the clang package in debian
unstable.
* tor-ci-mingwcross-* (old-ish)
https://jenkins.torproject.org/job/tor-ci-mingwcross-master/2499/ARCHITECTU…
This looks like a misconfiguration to me -- it seems to be complaining
about not having found a zlib package maybe?
* tor-ci-windows-master (old?)
https://jenkins.torproject.org/job/tor-ci-windows-master/78/console
This looks like it could be a real bug: a unit test is
failing. It's in "slow/process/callbacks" -- I believe ahf knows that
code best.
asn:
Week of 19/08 (planned):
- Read [tor-dev] [prop305] Introduction Point Behavior
- Check open hackerone issue.
- Finish up with reviews and merges before CCC camp.
- Attend CCC camp and participate in the talk.
- Speak with the onionbalance maintainer during camp to make plans for v3
onionbalance.
Week of 19/08 (actual):
- Replied to [tor-dev] threads
- Cleared up hackerone issue.
- Reviewed and revised #30924 (DoS ticket)
- Finished all urgent reviews/merges but not all of them.
- Worked on onionbalance:
- Met with Donncha at camp and talked onionbalance.
- Spoke with atagar about #31369 and reviewed his new code.
- Mapped out what needs to be done in #31369 from my side.
- Did the talk at camp!
Week of 26/08 (planned):
- Finish up reviews/merges that piled up further.
- More work on stem side of onionbalance (#31369)
- Find time to watch the recording from the latest mozilla meeting
- Think about HS issue: #20212
asn:
Week of 26/08 (planned):
- Finish up reviews/merges that piled up further.
- More work on stem side of onionbalance (#31369)
- Find time to watch the recording from the latest mozilla meeting
- Think about HS issue: #20212
Week of 26/08 (actual):
- Finished up various reviews (plus extra) and did most of merges.
- Tons of work on stem side of onionbalance (#31369):
- Started understanding stem's ins and outs.
- Managed to decrypt both layers of the descriptor
- Started work on encoding HSv3descriptors
- Started work on encoding/decoding ed25519 certs
- Code is seriously dirty but does things.
Week of 02/09 (actual):
- Hyper focusing on onionbalance+stem #31369.
- The goal is to be able to encode and decode v3 descriptors by
the end of next week.
- Reviews/merges as per the usual
ahf (I'm in "normal" danish hour cycle so I might miss the meeting):
Week of 2nd of August September (planned):
- Returned from long vacation of BornHack and CCCamp.
- Harvest reporting.
- Reading mailing lists, meeting minutes, catch up on
community council things, look at Trac and tor.git changes of August.
- Hacking on #5304.
- Going to be away Thursday (around Friday) to attend a
conference in DK and talk about Tor at the engineers union here in DK.
dgoulet:
Week of 19/08 (actual):
- #30924 has been revised and now merge_ready
- Worked on HS timeout issues (#30200 + #28841). Built a tracing system to
follow the HS dance coupled with circuit build time and timeout. Already
paid off, #31490 is a bug that came out of it.
- Spent time chasing a EWMA cell scheduling issue but fell off the radar
after some hours, lack of time to continue.
Week of 26/08 (planned):
- Continue on #30200.
- Address revisions needed for #30924 if any comes.