[tor-relays] Explaining Tor to worried parent

niftybunny abuse at to-surf-and-protect.net
Mon Nov 12 15:23:42 UTC 2018

Okay, this is the tldr version, if you want the long version e-mail me at abuse at to-surf.and-protect.net <mailto:abuse at to-surf.and-protect.net>

1. ISPs want to make money, in fact they have to turn in a profit to survive. Yeah, I know that sounds unbelievable. Tor is legal but someone has to take care of abuse mails. These support people want money for their work. If you get lots of abuse mails and the support person is working for 2 house on them and cost the company 50 euros and you are paying 10 euros for the hosting, they will try to get rid of you. Its simple as that. Another issue is that their is tier 1 support that is dumb as hell. Try to talk to KabelDeutschland “Internet Specialists" (now Vodafone) about DNS issues or the OSI model. They have no clue at all und you get suicidal after a few minutes over the incompetence.

2. I get a few hundred “normal” abuse mails a day. I answer them, 99,x% I get no reply on my answer. 

3. I get lots of subpoenas and mails from FBI and other state actors. In these e-mails they are *always* treating me as attester, never as the defendant. 

4. Even as the Bundeskriminalamt (Feral State Police here in Germany) chased me over multiple real estate I owe one the first thing they said to me was that they know Tor is legal and I am not a defendant but they need to follow the IP data and need to know that I have no data that would help them.

5. Stalking you a little, you should be from the Netherlands. So we have the same EU laws. 

6. There is not a single EU citizen ever indicted over a Tor exit. Ignore the Austria judgment, that was bad press work and to long to explain atm.


> On 12. Nov 2018, at 13:53, DrNotThatEvil <relay at wilv.in> wrote:
> Hi everybody,
> My exit got suspended for a little a few hours today, even tho I
> contacted my isp before
> to explain the situation (it was related to a spam blacklist suspend
> policy). I got the matter
> resolved quickly but due to the annoyance I mentioned it to a parent.
> The conversation quickly devolved into worry and fear advising me to
> stop running it,
> to be honest now that I think about it from her perspective I can't
> blame her for thinking like this.
> However the responses and explanations from my end never hit the mark, I
> know why I'm doing it
> I know their might be risks but that I'm doing something that I believe in.
> Have you guys/gals ever faced situations similar to this? How did you
> handle it?
> Secondly she also raised the following question:
> 'if you don't do it somebody else will, so why do you put yourself at risk?
> Thirdly she detected from the conversation that a Exit Relay might not
> be free from legal issues and
> I can't say that this is not the case, but I do think her view of these
> issues is utmost grim bringing up
> my future and employment opportunities.
> How would do you view/explain the severity of these legal issues?
> Kind Regards,
> Willmar
> _______________________________________________
> tor-relays mailing list
> tor-relays at lists.torproject.org
> https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays

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