Hi I just wanted to let you know that Washington sent us a subpoena regarding one of our exit nodes in Romania. They want to know the real IP behind the Tor Network. I mailed them what Tor is and why I can't help them in identifying this person. Nevertheless I will give you the link to the full subpoena. Maybe you guys find it interesting. I will forward the subpoena to our lawyer as well. https://mega.co.nz/#!ilIjlZSb!-deirKharWaDtp_UMxhev58E14zeouyoWUbzxeWPvEQ Greetings -- Sam Grüneisen - President Frënn vun der Ënn A.S.B.L. enn.lu
Hi Tyler, Thanks for sharing. I've been reluctant to publish ours, because with the wrong interpretation -- without relating it to the sheer amount of data we push -- it may paint a negative picture on Tor. Also, funny how they simply assume how you (in Luxembourg) and the hoster (in Romania) can be "commanded" via a US subpoena. I agree that it's best to give them a straightforward answer, but you are not required to do so. On 04/20/2015 04:32 PM, Tyler Durden wrote:
Hi I just wanted to let you know that Washington sent us a subpoena regarding one of our exit nodes in Romania. They want to know the real IP behind the Tor Network. I mailed them what Tor is and why I can't help them in identifying this person. Nevertheless I will give you the link to the full subpoena. Maybe you guys find it interesting. I will forward the subpoena to our lawyer as well.
https://mega.co.nz/#!ilIjlZSb!-deirKharWaDtp_UMxhev58E14zeouyoWUbzxeWPvEQ
Greetings
-- Moritz Bartl https://www.torservers.net/
Hey Moritz, did you react to this subpoena? What consequences had it for you? 2015-04-20 18:48 GMT+02:00 Moritz Bartl <moritz@torservers.net>:
Hi Tyler,
Thanks for sharing. I've been reluctant to publish ours, because with the wrong interpretation -- without relating it to the sheer amount of data we push -- it may paint a negative picture on Tor.
Also, funny how they simply assume how you (in Luxembourg) and the hoster (in Romania) can be "commanded" via a US subpoena. I agree that it's best to give them a straightforward answer, but you are not required to do so.
On 04/20/2015 04:32 PM, Tyler Durden wrote:
Hi I just wanted to let you know that Washington sent us a subpoena regarding one of our exit nodes in Romania. They want to know the real IP behind the Tor Network. I mailed them what Tor is and why I can't help them in identifying this person. Nevertheless I will give you the link to the full subpoena. Maybe you guys find it interesting. I will forward the subpoena to our lawyer as well.
https://mega.co.nz/#!ilIjlZSb!-deirKharWaDtp_UMxhev58E14zeouyoWUbzxeWPvEQ
Greetings
-- Moritz Bartl https://www.torservers.net/ _______________________________________________ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
A foreign sovereign can command anything to anyone... without a reasonable expectation that anyone will follow it. Even in Canada, I am not obliged to respond to American subpoenas unless and until my government commands me to. Only your sovereign can command you to do anything. A foreign sovereign has zero right to anything outside of it's own purview. Here is an excellent quote
From the "OFFICES OF THE UNITED STATES ATTORNEYS" http://www.justice.gov/usam/usam-3-19000-witnesses#3-19.320
"Since foreign nationals residing in the foreign countries are not subject to the subpoena power of United States Courts, their attendance can be obtained only on a voluntary basis. Obtaining testimony from foreign nationals is often a delicate matter, and care must be taken to avoid offending the sovereignty of the foreign country involved." Keep us up to date!!! Matt Speak Freely Moritz Bartl:
Hi Tyler,
Thanks for sharing. I've been reluctant to publish ours, because with the wrong interpretation -- without relating it to the sheer amount of data we push -- it may paint a negative picture on Tor.
Also, funny how they simply assume how you (in Luxembourg) and the hoster (in Romania) can be "commanded" via a US subpoena. I agree that it's best to give them a straightforward answer, but you are not required to do so.
On 04/20/2015 04:32 PM, Tyler Durden wrote:
Hi I just wanted to let you know that Washington sent us a subpoena regarding one of our exit nodes in Romania. They want to know the real IP behind the Tor Network. I mailed them what Tor is and why I can't help them in identifying this person. Nevertheless I will give you the link to the full subpoena. Maybe you guys find it interesting. I will forward the subpoena to our lawyer as well.
https://mega.co.nz/#!ilIjlZSb!-deirKharWaDtp_UMxhev58E14zeouyoWUbzxeWPvEQ
Greetings
On 2015-04-20 10:31, Speak Freely wrote:
A foreign sovereign can command anything to anyone... without a reasonable expectation that anyone will follow it.
Even in Canada, I am not obliged to respond to American subpoenas unless and until my government commands me to. Only your sovereign can command you to do anything. A foreign sovereign has zero right to anything outside of it's own purview.
Keep in mind that if you do respond at all, the US court may claim to have waived jurisdictional arguments and consented to the jurisdiction, in which case a court order can be enforced cross-jurisdictionally in certain cases. Spamhaus learned the hard way when they hired a US lawyer to represent them and that lawyer responded incorrectly and enabled the lawsuit to become binding upon themselves despite the lack of physical presence within the US. While they ultimately prevailed on their appeal to the greatest degree still available, they were unable to vacate the default judgement entirely (only the amount), so while they ended up paying a nominal amount and winning for more useful purposes, they technically lost the case. Had they failed to appeal or lost the appeal, the resulting order would have been binding and enforceable in UK courts because Spamhaus's actions consented to the plaintiff's choice of jurisdiction. On the criminal side, you can also be extradited in certain cases. Kim Dotcom is still working through the complexities of this particular situation. So I would highly recommend engaging a lawyer to verify that your actions don't waive any arguments or otherwise consent to anything that can be enforced across borders. (And no, odds of any of this impacting a simple Tor operator are not very high unless you're otherwise a high profile or high value target) -- Dave Warren http://www.hireahit.com/ http://ca.linkedin.com/in/davejwarren
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 If you don't plan on visiting the US anytime soon, you may do what I do. I remind them where on the map they are, where on the map I am, where their borders are and an illustration of where they can shove it. It's certainly a point my tactics are crude and may anger some people, but to put it bluntly I am really irritated that they would knowingly send such a thing to a foreign establishment. Nothing screams a self of ownership of the internet like the wording on those documents and when they change it from a demand to a request I may reconsider my own wording - but until then I reserve my own right to conjure up insults for their insult against me. T On 20/04/2015 19:54, Dave Warren wrote:
On 2015-04-20 10:31, Speak Freely wrote:
A foreign sovereign can command anything to anyone... without a reasonable expectation that anyone will follow it.
Even in Canada, I am not obliged to respond to American subpoenas unless and until my government commands me to. Only your sovereign can command you to do anything. A foreign sovereign has zero right to anything outside of it's own purview.
Keep in mind that if you do respond at all, the US court may claim to have waived jurisdictional arguments and consented to the jurisdiction, in which case a court order can be enforced cross-jurisdictionally in certain cases. Spamhaus learned the hard way when they hired a US lawyer to represent them and that lawyer responded incorrectly and enabled the lawsuit to become binding upon themselves despite the lack of physical presence within the US.
While they ultimately prevailed on their appeal to the greatest degree still available, they were unable to vacate the default judgement entirely (only the amount), so while they ended up paying a nominal amount and winning for more useful purposes, they technically lost the case. Had they failed to appeal or lost the appeal, the resulting order would have been binding and enforceable in UK courts because Spamhaus's actions consented to the plaintiff's choice of jurisdiction.
On the criminal side, you can also be extradited in certain cases. Kim Dotcom is still working through the complexities of this particular situation.
So I would highly recommend engaging a lawyer to verify that your actions don't waive any arguments or otherwise consent to anything that can be enforced across borders.
(And no, odds of any of this impacting a simple Tor operator are not very high unless you're otherwise a high profile or high value target)
- -- Activist, anarchist and a bit of a dreamer. Keybase: https://keybase.io/thomaswhite PGP Keys: https://www.thecthulhu.com/pgp-keys/ Current Fingerprint: BA81 407C BD61 CD15 E5D9 ADA9 5FA2 426F F34E 0FD4 Master Fingerprint: DDEF AB9B 1962 5D09 4264 2558 1F23 39B7 EF10 09F0 Twitter: @CthulhuSec XMPP: thecthulhu at jabber.ccc.de XMPP-OTR: 77E6C8C6 95FDE863 1172A1E1 8C114C01 691398AC -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJVNU8uAAoJEF+iQm/zTg/UjBcP/iGt09Di3OELi3cKssxXR6Xf oYUTrrzYKOwGBgFCrr5CIiWZ3TT6RcHnJwll4mE1WZ4rM9QGSxXG0+xapXIYNh6f WQSfEuLeuD72JETIKRQ70Zfo21dY6vmYjGMuL1csYmpMWRf3XGa8azYlRyo1cESZ Wx5wm7GNpvYTyHW/WQHVlU0N5ewMhHdXMHbJaFfSHuaYM8rkF4pkQyqLkIdLTzmt 4LY1kiv64R3o2n4PVOxEjcjQgqkGvQv6RI45/78IGUcDOExwnIhy7O6eFhVXV/BZ PRjxXCdIF/7gN2Rxnp4ITdod19oNYdLe7BTKyrtfHju3daHMvf0OPLo4ec+sIFxy JU3+De613Ajld1f4JgX4AD60OtilVz36tuh4otgYxcrS0xf28+E9puqfwNZAvm0w LKIOsB3AXDesifhSF0vPnCw+DH5JISwTvCn0b2BNfYKIoDpbnKSJSl1ZyW58uB/b ancB5s6sbnXe4dfhhGQlv9Ort8Qk51joqx12kEKnbi2PI2e/3qtFzRfEmlZbocc9 nsNlhZY3ov+9/W3CY7Tnjp0BdA20i0ih9BwLvd8no7vkKwKSdc/FMNXe2ZSjHaok RsPXBdZTJ1rmCnySKL8AhcwkpjsfENfFQZPTldO7FLA4Cxw+CtxwgIMah5fzq19N KBDHdPlYvD826vWzj+5j =n8Wt -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On 04/20/2015 09:10 PM, Thomas White wrote:
If you don't plan on visiting the US anytime soon, you may do what I do. I remind them where on the map they are, where on the map I am, where their borders are and an illustration of where they can shove it.
I don't think this is a good strategy. You may do so if you please, but what Tor needs is friends, not enemies. I mentioned the jurisdictional issue here just because people should be aware. We send basically the same answer to everyone, which is simply that we don't have that kind of information, that we are legally not even allowed to keep that information due to German law, and that we are not interested in supporting criminal activity, but part of a charitable, non-profit cause for a free and secure Internet. We offer our help if they have further questions about anonymity, and we did teach several small LEAs over the course of time about it. If you as an exit operator, or your ISP, receives a subpoena or a court order, you do not need to pay for a lawyer. You should react quickly, and cite the relevant laws in your country ( see https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/doc/TorExitGuidelines ). Point to Exonerator so they can verify that you were an exit -- I doubt they do, and it is not relevant to the case you are making, but it is another friendly gesture and it might help a different exit operator the next time in an investigation by that department. We're happy to help exit operators that are unsure how to deal with complaints or requests for information. If you play by the book, we will gladly cover legal costs. The thing is, if you play nicely, it is very unlikely you will need one in the first place. -- Moritz Bartl https://www.torservers.net/
Thanks Moritz. This is good information. I do see both sides of the coin, as American courts often do seem to be attempting to override international law. But, when someone spits in your face, it's rarely a good idea to spit back. If we all took the position of 'Teacher' when these things happen, eventually the courts will learn the technology and know not to ask. Also of critical importance, depending on your country of origin, it may actually be illegal for you to provide third parties, for example a court of law, any log information that you do have - because as relay Operators, it's not our data that's traveling through the network. Good luck! Matt Speak Freely
Now Alistaro (our ISP) wants the IPs as well or they will probably shut down the server tomorrow. Well that escalated quickly. -- Sam Grüneisen - President Frënn vun der Ënn A.S.B.L. enn.lu
All I can say is reach out to EFF and Moritz. I am surprised and saddened to hear this. Have you told your ISP about Tor? Did you tell them in advance of setting up the relay what it is, and what it is not? Kind regards, Matt Speak Freely Tyler Durden:
Now Alistaro (our ISP) wants the IPs as well or they will probably shut down the server tomorrow.
Well that escalated quickly.
I'm in contact with Moritz and yes we told them from the beginning what our organization does and what Tor is. We had no problems so far. I'm as surprised as you guys. Voxility/Alistaro was always very Tor friendly. On 2015-04-22 19:08, Speak Freely wrote:
All I can say is reach out to EFF and Moritz.
I am surprised and saddened to hear this.
Have you told your ISP about Tor? Did you tell them in advance of setting up the relay what it is, and what it is not?
Kind regards,
Matt Speak Freely
Tyler Durden:
Now Alistaro (our ISP) wants the IPs as well or they will probably shut down the server tomorrow.
Well that escalated quickly.
_______________________________________________ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
-- Sam Grüneisen - President Frënn vun der Ënn A.S.B.L. enn.lu
Dave, I missed a required comment on my post, so thanks! I am not a lawyer, and my comments should not be taken as legal advice. The Law of Nations is more or less black and white, but the politicians and lawyers have mucked the lines very well. Thomas, I like your style. They are well aware of their need to send Letters of Rogatory for the foreign sovereign they wish to deal with. Matt Speak Freely
On 4/21/15, Dave Warren <davew@hireahit.com> wrote:
On 2015-04-20 10:31, Speak Freely wrote:
A foreign sovereign can command anything to anyone... without a reasonable expectation that anyone will follow it.
Even in Canada, I am not obliged to respond to American subpoenas unless and until my government commands me to. Only your sovereign can command you to do anything. A foreign sovereign has zero right to anything outside of it's own purview.
Keep in mind that if you do respond at all, the US court may claim to have waived jurisdictional arguments and consented to the jurisdiction, in which case a court order can be enforced cross-jurisdictionally in certain cases. Spamhaus learned the hard way when they hired a US lawyer to represent them and that lawyer responded incorrectly and enabled the lawsuit to become binding upon themselves despite the lack of physical presence within the US.
While they ultimately prevailed on their appeal to the greatest degree still available, they were unable to vacate the default judgement entirely (only the amount), so while they ended up paying a nominal amount and winning for more useful purposes, they technically lost the case. Had they failed to appeal or lost the appeal, the resulting order would have been binding and enforceable in UK courts because Spamhaus's actions consented to the plaintiff's choice of jurisdiction.
This is very interesting. In Australia, consent to give evidence and be cross examined, can later be withdrawn. The principle AIUI (IANAL) is that where consent can be given, and is given, such freedom to give is also the freedom to take away and therefore consent can be removed at any time. To be safe though, I would recommend that any party giving conditional consent to appear, in any jurisidiction including their own jurisdictions ordinarily binding upon themselves, to enter a formal Conditional Appearance, specifically limiting the extent of the jurisdiction consented to, and reserving the right to withdraw consent upon written notice to that court (or any high court if the case goes to any such court on appeal etc). I am quite surprised that Spamhaus's lawyer(s) failed to do this, failed to give conditional consent for Spamhaus to appear in the jurisdiction, failed to formalise Spamhaus' consent to appear, and failed to advise Spamhaus that once given, their conditional (or full, for a time) consent to appear could be withdrawn and that it ought to have been withdrawn, and in fact that the lawyers should have immediately withdrawn Spamhaus' consent to appear when that was needed. I do have a fair idea why Spamhaus' American lawyers 'overlooked' all these things.
On the criminal side, you can also be extradited in certain cases. Kim Dotcom is still working through the complexities of this particular situation.
So I would highly recommend engaging a lawyer to verify that your actions don't waive any arguments or otherwise consent to anything that can be enforced across borders.
The point is, the lawyers that Spamhaus engaged may well have fucked them over, intentionally or otherwise. I highly recommend engaging common sense, verify everything you otherwise assume, and assume your lawyers are not acting in your own interest and need to be micro managed. E.g., insist on the address for service being you and you personally, then send copies of all documents you choose for your lawyer to view, to your lawyer, keeping the originals. Likwise, e.g. having your lawyer send all documents they produce on your behalf, to you, and you keeping a copy before you sending said document(s) to the relevant parties (which may be the court itself). Oh, and insist on a detailed schedule of fees before engaging them. Keep a Strong, Short, Tight leash on your lawyer!!
(And no, odds of any of this impacting a simple Tor operator are not very high unless you're otherwise a high profile or high value target)
Good luck people :) Zenaan
On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 10:32 AM, Tyler Durden <virii@enn.lu> wrote:
I just wanted to let you know that Washington sent us a subpoena regarding one of our exit nodes in Romania
Just FYI, "Washington" doesn't appear to have anything to do with this. The subpoena is on the letterhead of an office of Cook County, Illinois, which is the locality containing the city of Chicago. Per http://www.cookcountyil.gov/office-of-the-independent-inspector-general/ this office investigates misconduct by county officials. This matters because, first, this is probably a tiny little outfit with little or no clue about either the Internet or international law. They *should have* hired an international lawyer when they saw they'd need to talk to someone operating out of Romania and/or Luxembourg, but it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that they didn't. And they've probably never even heard of Tor before. Second, the incident which triggered the investigation, whatever it is, is probably quite minor. (This is backed up by their asking for one IP address active at a single point in time.) It would have been booted up to the state or federal level if it were any kind of serious. For both those reasons, I would rate the odds of them actually bothering to jump through all the necessary legal hoops to get a court order binding on a foreign national as slim to none. The appropriate response, I think, is a polite but firm brush-off stating that (a) they have no jurisdiction, and (b) even if they did, you cannot provide the information requested because <insert explanation of Tor here>. Probably worth hiring your own lawyer to draft it, though. (I'm fairly sure this agency has no jurisdiction over *me*, just a couple of states east, but I'd definitely go talk to CMU's lawyers if I got one of these.) zw
On 2015-04-20 22:29, Zack Weinberg wrote:
On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 10:32 AM, Tyler Durden <virii@enn.lu> wrote:
I just wanted to let you know that Washington sent us a subpoena regarding one of our exit nodes in Romania Just FYI, "Washington" doesn't appear to have anything to do with this. The subpoena is on the letterhead of an office of Cook County, Illinois, which is the locality containing the city of Chicago. Per http://www.cookcountyil.gov/office-of-the-independent-inspector-general/ this office investigates misconduct by county officials.
Right I misread the address. It's not Washington. It's only Washington Street ;) -- Sam Grüneisen - President Frënn vun der Ënn A.S.B.L. enn.lu
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 Zack Weinberg:
On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 10:32 AM, Tyler Durden <virii@enn.lu> wrote:
I just wanted to let you know that Washington sent us a subpoena regarding one of our exit nodes in Romania
Just FYI, "Washington" doesn't appear to have anything to do with this. The subpoena is on the letterhead of an office of Cook County, Illinois, which is the locality containing the city of Chicago. Per http://www.cookcountyil.gov/office-of-the-independent-inspector-general/
this office investigates misconduct by county officials.
This matters because, first, this is probably a tiny little outfit with little or no clue about either the Internet or international law.
As a resident of Cook Country I can safely say it's not a small locality, but I'm sure their knowledge about international law is quite low.
They *should have* hired an international lawyer when they saw they'd need to talk to someone operating out of Romania and/or Luxembourg, but it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that they didn't.
And they've probably never even heard of Tor before.
I know the Chicago Police claim they don't know what Tor is. http://www.muckrock.com/foi/chicago-169/chicago-police-use-of-tor-15392/
Second, the incident which triggered the investigation, whatever it is, is probably quite minor. (This is backed up by their asking for one IP address active at a single point in time.) It would have been booted up to the state or federal level if it were any kind of serious. For both those reasons, I would rate the odds of them actually bothering to jump through all the necessary legal hoops to get a court order binding on a foreign national as slim to none.
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On 2015-04-20 08:32, Tyler Durden wrote:
Hi I just wanted to let you know that Washington sent us a subpoena regarding one of our exit nodes in Romania. They want to know the real IP behind the Tor Network. I mailed them what Tor is and why I can't help them in identifying this person. Nevertheless I will give you the link to the full subpoena. Maybe you guys find it interesting. I will forward the subpoena to our lawyer as well.
https://mega.co.nz/#!ilIjlZSb!-deirKharWaDtp_UMxhev58E14zeouyoWUbzxeWPvEQ
Greetings
Might you be able to make a copy available at a non-Flash-afflicted tracking site, by any chance? Mega actually works more poorly (Flash-affliction) than the typical scripty-crazy 'download' sites. Richard
Mega? A dotcom? Really people? Come on, that's soo legacy. Use what your mama gave you... put it on a hidden service.
Am 22.04.2015 um 21:39 schrieb grarpamp:
Use what your mama gave you... put it on a hidden service.
Great idea: http://tke3zwmd6mnvq6jp.onion/AlistarSecuritySubpoena.pdf
Sounds like they don't know what Tor is, or they didn't notice your host is a Tor exit node. Might be a good idea to address both issues by sending them a link to the Tor documentation and configuring a better reverse DNS record for your IP address. Best regards, Alexander --- PGP Key: https://dietrich.cx/pgp | 0x727A756DC55A356B Jabber: alexander@ffnord.net On 2015-04-23 00:28, janulrich wrote:
Am 22.04.2015 um 21:39 schrieb grarpamp:
Use what your mama gave you... put it on a hidden service.
Great idea: http://tke3zwmd6mnvq6jp.onion/AlistarSecuritySubpoena.pdf _______________________________________________ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
On 20/04/15 16:32, Tyler Durden wrote:
Hi I just wanted to let you know that Washington sent us a subpoena regarding one of our exit nodes in Romania. They want to know the real IP behind the Tor Network. I mailed them what Tor is and why I can't help them in identifying this person. Nevertheless I will give you the link to the full subpoena. Maybe you guys find it interesting. I will forward the subpoena to our lawyer as well.
https://mega.co.nz/#!ilIjlZSb!-deirKharWaDtp_UMxhev58E14zeouyoWUbzxeWPvEQ
Good morning list, I just called up Alistar and explained the entire situation. They IT guys know what Tor is and their company is strongly interested in continuing supporting Tor. They are a partner company now of Voxility, and the apparently while moving some clients, someone did forget to tell them that they'll get a client running Tor exit nodes. They are simply overchallenged with this request as it is the very first one they have ever received. The good news is, that they will _not_ shutdown our server, nor take any logs, which are non-existant. The counterpart we need to contribute is a letter by our lawyer and favorably a letter from EFF or some other bigger organization guaranteeing Tor is what it is and we as client do not try to fool them. This is a request from the administration level of the company, not the tech guys - as always. So, I'll get in touch with our lawyer & with EFF. Is there anyone else within EU, whom could certify them what Tor is and what it is capable of and what not? Moritz? Cheers, J. -- Jan GUTH International Coordinator Frënn vun der Ënn A.S.B.L. (NGO) e. info@enn.lu (GPG: 0x02225522) t. +352–691–71–77–44 w. http://enn.lu/
Hi,
The counterpart we need to contribute is a letter by our lawyer and favorably a letter from EFF or some other bigger organization guaranteeing Tor is what it is and we as client do not try to fool them.
as the US government sponsored (parts of) the Tor development - what about giving them US military research papers about the Tor network? http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a465464.pdf is one of them, co-authored by a Navy researcher and performed by the Naval Research Laboratory. Not itself sufficient, but done by a bigger organisation w/o triggering anarchist/commie/hacker/terroristsupporting/publicenemy bias reactions. Renke
On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 11:47:17AM +0200, renke@mobtm.com wrote:
Hi,
The counterpart we need to contribute is a letter by our lawyer and favorably a letter from EFF or some other bigger organization guaranteeing Tor is what it is and we as client do not try to fool them.
as the US government sponsored (parts of) the Tor development - what about giving them US military research papers about the Tor network?
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a465464.pdf is one of them, co-authored by a Navy researcher and performed by the Naval Research Laboratory.
Not merely sponsored: I created Tor along with Roger and Nick, and I invented the underlying onion routing technology years earlier with David Goldschlag and Mike Reed. All of this was done under NRL projects with funding we received from various sponsors. I have no idea what is legally relevant for this, but it might also be useful to point them at ExoneraTor https://exonerator.torproject.org/ which was designed after interactions with law enforcement indicated that such a tool would be useful for them. aloha, Paul
On 20/04/15 16:32, Tyler Durden wrote:
Hi I just wanted to let you know that Washington sent us a subpoena regarding one of our exit nodes in Romania. They want to know the real IP behind the Tor Network. I mailed them what Tor is and why I can't help them in identifying this person. Nevertheless I will give you the link to the full subpoena. Maybe you guys find it interesting. I will forward the subpoena to our lawyer as well.
https://mega.co.nz/#!ilIjlZSb!-deirKharWaDtp_UMxhev58E14zeouyoWUbzxeWPvEQ
Good morning list, I just called up Alistar and explained the entire situation. They IT guys know what Tor is and their company is strongly interested in continuing supporting Tor. They are a partner company now of Voxility, and the apparently while moving some clients, someone did forget to tell them that they'll get a client running Tor exit nodes. They are simply overchallenged with this request as it is the very first one they have ever received. The good news is, that they will _not_ shutdown our server, nor take any logs, which are non-existant. The counterpart we need to contribute is a letter by our lawyer and favorably a letter from EFF or some other bigger organization guaranteeing Tor is what it is and we as client do not try to fool them. This is a request from the administration level of the company, not the tech guys - as always. So, I'll get in touch with our lawyer & with EFF. Is there anyone else within EU, whom could certify them what Tor is and what it is capable of and what not? Moritz? Cheers, J. -- Jan GUTH International Coordinator Frënn vun der Ënn A.S.B.L. (NGO) e. info@enn.lu (GPG: 0x02225522) t. +352–691–71–77–44 w. http://enn.lu/
On 04/23/2015 10:20 AM, Jan GUTH wrote:
So, I'll get in touch with our lawyer & with EFF. Is there anyone else within EU, whom could certify them what Tor is and what it is capable of and what not? Moritz?
Depends on what convinces them. :-) Sounds like it may make sense to get a generic letter signed by all our partner organizations (which includes Reporters without Borders, Institute of War & Peace Reporting, Article19, and potentially other Human Rights Orgs) in the long run. I'm happy to write something as Torservers.net, in a way representing all the current partner orgs. Then, we can send the letter around and get it co-signed by all the partner orgs and other orgs. -- Moritz Bartl https://www.torservers.net/
On 2015-04-23 13:57, Moritz Bartl wrote:
On 04/23/2015 10:20 AM, Jan GUTH wrote:
So, I'll get in touch with our lawyer & with EFF. Is there anyone else within EU, whom could certify them what Tor is and what it is capable of and what not? Moritz? ...
I'm happy to write something as Torservers.net, in a way representing all the current partner orgs. Then, we can send the letter around and get it co-signed by all the partner orgs and other orgs.
Great idea! Keep me updated :) -- Sam Grüneisen - President Frënn vun der Ënn A.S.B.L. enn.lu
While you're busy doing all this writing and signing you need to post the results up on the wiki, the tor relay banner page, EFF legal info/opinion page update, etc.
Hi, On 04/24/2015 10:19 AM, grarpamp wrote:
While you're busy doing all this writing and signing you need to post the results up on the wiki, the tor relay banner page, EFF legal info/opinion page update, etc.
Looks like the problem with Alistaro solved itself without a letter. I somehow doubt an old dated letter helps in the next case. What is the "tor relay banner page"? The EFF legal info page is specifically only about US cases and US law. This is not something new, this happens regularly. ISPs get scared, you usually can calm them down, and if not, you move to another. No need to make a big fuss about it? I will update the GoodBadISPs, someone added Voxility with a tendency towards no. We've been happy Voxility customers for several years now, and so are enn.lu. Voxility passed some things over to Alistaro, I think it's basically a subsidiary to separate datacenter operation from end-user hosting. -- Moritz Bartl https://www.torservers.net/
On 2015-04-24 18:15, Moritz Bartl wrote:
Hi,
On 04/24/2015 10:19 AM, grarpamp wrote:
While you're busy doing all this writing and signing you need to post the results up on the wiki, the tor relay banner page, EFF legal info/opinion page update, etc. Looks like the problem with Alistaro solved itself without a letter. I somehow doubt an old dated letter helps in the next case. What is the "tor relay banner page"? The EFF legal info page is specifically only about US cases and US law.
This is not something new, this happens regularly. ISPs get scared, you usually can calm them down, and if not, you move to another. No need to make a big fuss about it?
I will update the GoodBadISPs, someone added Voxility with a tendency towards no. We've been happy Voxility customers for several years now, and so are enn.lu. Voxility passed some things over to Alistaro, I think it's basically a subsidiary to separate datacenter operation from end-user hosting.
Yep, we simply called Alistaro and they claim they weren't informed about that some of their new customers were running Tor nodes and for them it is their first subpoena received. Alistaro is quite new into this business ;) (Voxility moved our server to the Datacenter operated by Alistaro) They will now receive a letter from our Lawyer in english which explains again what Tor is and how the legal frame is (or seems to be). Greetings -- Sam Grüneisen - President Frënn vun der Ënn A.S.B.L. enn.lu
participants (16)
-
Alexander Dietrich -
Brian Kroll -
Dave Warren -
DerTor Steher -
grarpamp -
Jan GUTH -
janulrich -
Moritz Bartl -
Paul Syverson -
renke＠mobtm.com -
Richard Johnson -
Speak Freely -
Thomas White -
Tyler Durden -
Zack Weinberg -
Zenaan Harkness