What are the thoughts of relay operators on this? https://ghostbin.com/paste/kmnzz I can be persuaded otherwise, and perhaps i'm being naive, but i believe that operation of the network should remain independent from the politics within the organization. mk
I've never believed in strikes. They never seem to really do anything, other than make something unaccessible for a day or 2 (just like the Wikipedia blackout a few years ago). I don't understand any of the demands on the page, or why they matter. Tor does its job, whether an ex-CIA agent helps develop it or not. If someone could explain this like I'm five, it'd be a great help, but I'm still going to run my Tor relay and use the Tor Browser. On Aug 21, 2016 8:54 PM, "Marcel Krzystek" <m.krzystek@gmail.com> wrote:
What are the thoughts of relay operators on this? https://ghostbin.com/paste/kmnzz
I can be persuaded otherwise, and perhaps i'm being naive, but i believe that operation of the network should remain independent from the politics within the organization.
mk
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I read some tweets and found some articles. Jake Applegate stepped down from the project, and Sheri replaced the board of directors. But this strike wants to replace all Tor project members because of Applegate. I'm not connecting the dots, and the response on Twitter seems to be mostly against the strike. Regardless of who's involved with the project, lives are at stake here. People who don't rely on Tor don't realize how important it is. One tweet put it perfectly: You don't switch off the patients just because you disagree with the equipment vendor.
On Sun, Aug 21, 2016 at 07:53:26PM -0600, Marcel Krzystek wrote:
What are the thoughts of relay operators on this? https://ghostbin.com/paste/kmnzz
I can be persuaded otherwise, and perhaps i'm being naive, but i believe that operation of the network should remain independent from the politics within the organization.
Hi Marcel, Fact: Jacob Applebaum's directory authority was a target of NSA's XKEYSCORE: https://contraspin.co.nz/the-weaponising-of-social-part-3-the-resurrection-o... Fact: Jacob Applebaum got kicked from Tor Inc, prior to a proper investigation. Fact: The investigation done by Tor Inc, was run by the primary accusers of Jacob Applebaum. In the USA's war against Bradley Manning, Julian Assange, Wikileaks and Edward Snowden, Jacob Applebaum was a very high target, and caused the three letter agencies a lot of problems. So yes, operation of the network you use for -genuine- privacy needs, is very much dependent on those running the organisation. Fact: The ENTIRE board of Tor Inc got replaced after Jacob was given the boot! My conclusion: This was a coup, blunt and bloody, take no prisoners, respect no righteousness. My conclusion: The operation of the Tor directory authorities can no longer be trusted. My conclusion: The deployment of TBB by Tor Inc can no longer be trusted. Draw your own conclusions.
On 21/08/16 10:02 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
Fact: Jacob Applebaum's directory authority was a target of NSA's XKEYSCORE: https://contraspin.co.nz/the-weaponising-of-social-part-3-the-resurrection-o...
Of course, perhaps they all are.
Fact: Jacob Applebaum got kicked from Tor Inc, prior to a proper investigation.
Any organization would do the same with similar allegations. If he was exonerated, he could rejoin afterwards.
Fact: The investigation done by Tor Inc, was run by the primary accusers of Jacob Applebaum.
Evidence?
In the USA's war against Bradley Manning, Julian Assange, Wikileaks and Edward Snowden, Jacob Applebaum was a very high target, and caused the three letter agencies a lot of problems.
So yes, operation of the network you use for -genuine- privacy needs, is very much dependent on those running the organisation.
Fact: The ENTIRE board of Tor Inc got replaced after Jacob was given the boot!
My conclusion: This was a coup, blunt and bloody, take no prisoners, respect no righteousness.
Overdramatic. Where's the blood? Who was behind the coup, and what hard evidence do you have? Are you looking for #torstrike to prompt leaks of such info? Makes more sense for the Board to be distinct from the day to day operations people anyway.
My conclusion: The operation of the Tor directory authorities can no longer be trusted.
Perhaps it never could be. Are you ready to run one?
My conclusion: The deployment of TBB by Tor Inc can no longer be trusted.
Fork it.
On Sun, Aug 21, 2016 at 11:14:59PM -0400, krishna e bera wrote:
On 21/08/16 10:02 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
Fact: Jacob Applebaum's directory authority was a target of NSA's XKEYSCORE: https://contraspin.co.nz/the-weaponising-of-social-part-3-the-resurrection-o...
Of course, perhaps they all are.
Fact: Jacob Applebaum got kicked from Tor Inc, prior to a proper investigation.
Any organization would do the same with similar allegations. If he was exonerated, he could rejoin afterwards.
Put it to relevant/ external/ unbiased authorities, not internally compromised "investigation group with chips on their shoulders".
Fact: The investigation done by Tor Inc, was run by the primary accusers of Jacob Applebaum.
Evidence?
In the USA's war against Bradley Manning, Julian Assange, Wikileaks and Edward Snowden, Jacob Applebaum was a very high target, and caused the three letter agencies a lot of problems.
So yes, operation of the network you use for -genuine- privacy needs, is very much dependent on those running the organisation.
Fact: The ENTIRE board of Tor Inc got replaced after Jacob was given the boot!
My conclusion: This was a coup, blunt and bloody, take no prisoners, respect no righteousness.
Overdramatic. Where's the blood?
Jacob Applebaum's scalp.
Who was behind the coup, and what hard evidence do you have? Are you looking for #torstrike to prompt leaks of such info?
I don't know that torstrike could be useful ultimately. Forking possibly.
Makes more sense for the Board to be distinct from the day to day operations people anyway.
The only thing that makes sense is that the core people are trustworthy - there are now major problems with core Tor Inc people.
My conclusion: The operation of the Tor directory authorities can no longer be trusted.
Perhaps it never could be. Are you ready to run one?
Is that a genuine offer and a genuine possibility?
My conclusion: The deployment of TBB by Tor Inc can no longer be trusted.
Fork it.
That is happening.
On 08/21/2016 07:53 PM, Marcel Krzystek wrote:
What are the thoughts of relay operators on this? https://ghostbin.com/paste/kmnzz
I can be persuaded otherwise, and perhaps i'm being naive, but i believe that operation of the network should remain independent from the politics within the organization.
mk
That's an excellent point. But then, Tor Project kicked Appelbaum's relay based on politics, no?
On Sun, 21 Aug 2016 19:53:26 -0600 Marcel Krzystek <m.krzystek@gmail.com> wrote:
What are the thoughts of relay operators on this? https://ghostbin.com/paste/kmnzz
I can be persuaded otherwise, and perhaps i'm being naive, but i believe that operation of the network should remain independent from the politics within the organization.
mk
Mostly it just makes me question who's behind it. It definitely expresses very real concerns, but I don't see how this would possibly accomplish what they've set out to do, while at the same time making everybody that depends on tor vulnerable. It's not why I run a relay and it's not why Jake worked on tor. The only thing I see this accomplishing is further weakening the network. My relay will stay up. Others I know have considered spinning up a vps or ten for the day. Ass Pirate
On 21/08/16 09:53 PM, Marcel Krzystek wrote:
What are the thoughts of relay operators on this? https://ghostbin.com/paste/kmnzz
Arguments can be made against the specifics in it but my main problem with the manifesto is it doesnt say how they propose to deal with sexual harassment or "misconduct" among staff and volunteers. The new Tor Social Contract[1] seems the right way for the future. Cleaning up after the scandal was bound to be messy and it was almost inevitable that some people would be exiled. According to the latest official statement[0], Tor Project is not alleging criminal conduct (aka rape), so there is room for Jake and others to undergo training or claim misunderstanding, whichever way they are inclined, and move on. Regarding opsec, how do they propose to prevent anyone with evil credentials being involved in the project, when spies can simply hide the info? More importantly, why exclude people who want to do good? The internet was invented by researchers for the US military and continues to be operated by corporations generally sympathetic to their aims, while being a battleground for all kinds of actors. The code itself and how vulnerabilities are handled will determine Tor's trustworthiness. However, if partipation in #torstrike is significant, it would be nice to see support for developers to operate outside US/UK influence.
I can be persuaded otherwise, and perhaps i'm being naive, but i believe that operation of the network should remain independent from the politics within the organization.
Agree, net neutrality etc. But each of us has to choose where to place our limited time and resources, so it helps to feel positive toward the people in the organization. [0] https://blog.torproject.org/blog/statement-0 [1] https://blog.torproject.org/blog/tor-social-contract
On 8/21/16, Marcel Krzystek <m.krzystek@gmail.com> wrote:
What are the thoughts of relay operators on this? I can be persuaded otherwise, and perhaps i'm being naive
As unpaid and non contractually obligated volunteers, it's really up to each operator to follow their own conscience. No one is going to "die" if comms are a little slower than usual for a day. And it's not as if a 10%-30% aggregate dip for a while is going to dig into real capacity rather than unused headroom. Or that your statistics aren't going to recover. Or that Tor Project, or the community will not be able to mobilize any needed replacements, after all, the concept of anonymous networks is within us now, we've lived them... so they're not going anywhere. (And Tor has an advertising machine and budget, huge compared to other projects). But it would send a message, not just to Tor, or its community, but to the entire space, about what some values are, or need to be, or their level of importance, and so on... or it could just silently signal the need for others to talk more to discover them. Because we've got far bigger battles with adversaries to fight than to carry some suboptimal bullshit and come weak to the game as a result. There are now at least the idea of tor forks with different ethos. And there are plenty of other already existing, interesting, and upcoming anonymous overlay networks for transporting IP, messaging, storage and so on. Morphing market utilization and resources among them all is a normal and expected process. For that matter, for diversity reasons, there needs to be more than one good anonymous overlay network... different in areas of technology, code, operational base, geo politik/jurisdiction, development, funding, leadership, activism, and participation models... that is well known to the public, supported, reviewed, and used, par for par. Competition is fun and healthy. So this might be an oppurtunity for you to explore and participate in some of them as well, even exclusively as you might be doing today with Tor (if that's the way you do things). So maybe it's not really an issue of persuading anyone one way or the other, or being initially naive, or following any particular groupthink or call to action, or fear of making or even being labeled for choices... but a real chance to independantly take a week or more, researching and thinking about the issues, really the whole scope of the space and what's out there... beyond just the particulars of Tor and #torstrike alone... and then make any actions or longer term adjustments, changes, and talk, in your own way, based on that. Operators would have my support, whichever network[s] they choose to contribute to.
On 8/31/16, Green Dream <greendream848@gmail.com> wrote:
Well said grarpamp.
there are plenty of other already existing, interesting, and upcoming anonymous overlay networks for transporting IP, messaging, storage and so on.
Mind sharing some names here so I can research further?
Well, regarding recent threads... There's the IndependentOnion / RotorBrowser / Rotor project. See the links and audio below for more info on how the latter is beginning to take shape and unfurl its own sails. However if people would like to check out some things different and outside anything tor like or related, then of course neither Tor or IO would be of interest. So more along the lines of what I wrote regarding other networks, I'll try to list a variety of other projects in a followup post. https://rotorbrowser.com/ https://github.com/IndependentOnion https://lists.rotorbrowser.com/pipermail/rotor-general/ https://twitter.com/Jmprcx # IndependentOnion / RotorBrowser / Rotor Interview # intro 00:06:29-00:07:51 # exclusive jmprcx from 00:12:37-00:31:27, 00:37:02-00:51:30 # ppi commentary from 00:51:30-01:02:01 https://www.spreaker.com/user/anonukire/t0pg3arliv3-rotor-torfork-new-tor-br... https://api.spreaker.com/download/episode/9283555/t0pg3arliv3_rotor_torfork_... # unrelated segments 01:06:01-01:31:20, 01:34:18-01:57:00 https://twitter.com/hashtag/rotor https://twitter.com/hashtag/rotorbrowser https://twitter.com/hashtag/independentonion Other reference materiel re: thread... https://ghostbin.com/paste/kmnzz https://twitter.com/hashtag/torstrike https://ghostbin.com/paste/4am8w https://twitter.com/hashtag/torfork @miss_cybernaut, @jmprcx, @thatrez, @routenotfound @forktor, @puppydogs12345, @gguernica, @shiromarieke @shafpatel, @shallowaddict @saigonseamus, @angry_node
On 08/31/2016 04:39 PM, grarpamp wrote:
On 8/31/16, Green Dream <greendream848@gmail.com> wrote:
Well said grarpamp.
there are plenty of other already existing, interesting, and upcoming anonymous overlay networks for transporting IP, messaging, storage and so on.
Mind sharing some names here so I can research further?
Well, regarding recent threads...
There's the IndependentOnion / RotorBrowser / Rotor project. See the links and audio below for more info on how the latter is beginning to take shape and unfurl its own sails.
Flash proxy may be of some utility here, although to the best of my knowledge it is not in wide use. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_proxy As for the burgeoning of anonymity networks other than Tor, it'll be interesting to see what level of interest law enforcement organs take in them, if any. To me it seems to be a bit late in the day for a Cambrian Explosion -let a thousand anonymity networks bloom and see where it gets you.
On 8/31/16, Kenneth Freeman <kencf0618@riseup.net> wrote:
As for the burgeoning of anonymity networks other than Tor, it'll be interesting to see what level of interest law enforcement organs take in them, if any.
We know certain elements and entities are not at all fond of encryped anonymous overlay networks as a technology. That's different from any interest they take in the *users* of such networks and their activities. And different from any level of technical protection those *networks* may provide to the users against their adversaries. Any decently strong overlay network against some threat model is going to have the above three similar to any other network.
To me it seems to be a bit late in the day for a Cambrian Explosion -let a thousand anonymity networks bloom and see where it gets you.
I wouldn't say that. So long as any particular network is incapable or insufficient at resisting certain adversaries... or any of its models on the people or other sides of things are non ideal, or it just doesn't do what its users need it to do, there's in fact every expectation that other networks should and will bloom up. 1000? No of course not. Yet a handful of similar nets based on some feature chart... sure.
On 09/01/2016 01:47 AM, grarpamp wrote:
On 8/31/16, Kenneth Freeman <kencf0618@riseup.net> wrote:
To me it seems to be a bit late in the day for a Cambrian Explosion -let a thousand anonymity networks bloom and see where it gets you.
I wouldn't say that. So long as any particular network is incapable or insufficient at resisting certain adversaries... or any of its models on the people or other sides of things are non ideal, or it just doesn't do what its users need it to do, there's in fact every expectation that other networks should and will bloom up. 1000? No of course not. Yet a handful of similar nets based on some feature chart... sure.
I was riffing a bit on Mao's infamous Hundred Flowers Campaign. "The policy of letting a hundred flowers bloom and a hundred schools of thought contend is designed to promote the flourishing of the arts and the progress of science." Depends on your threat model, I suppose.
Is the Tor strike today? Because I just set up a second instance on my relay to get the most out of its bandwidth. Oops 😏
I just multiplied my BandwidthRate with a bit for my exit. //Spid On 02/09/16 02:28, Tristan wrote:
Is the Tor strike today? Because I just set up a second instance on my relay to get the most out of its bandwidth.
Oops 😏
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Good job, thank you!
Am 02.09.2016 um 17:26 schrieb D.S. Ljungmark <spider@takeit.se>:
I just multiplied my BandwidthRate with a bit for my exit.
//Spid
On 02/09/16 02:28, Tristan wrote: Is the Tor strike today? Because I just set up a second instance on my relay to get the most out of its bandwidth.
Oops 😏
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I was riffing a bit on Mao's infamous Hundred Flowers Campaign. "The policy of letting a hundred flowers bloom and a hundred schools of thought contend is designed to promote the flourishing of the arts and the progress of science." Depends on your threat model, I suppose.
The full quotation, taken from a speech of Mao's in Peking in February 1957, is: "Letting a hundred flowers blossom and a hundred schools of thought contend is the policy for promoting progress in the arts and the sciences and a flourishing socialist culture in our land." It is sometimes suggested that the initiative was a deliberate attempt to flush out dissidents by encouraging them to show themselves as critical of the regime. Whether or not it was a deliberate trap isn't clear but it is the case that many of those who put forward views that were unwelcome to Mao were executed.
participants (12)
-
Ass Pirate -
D.S. Ljungmark -
grarpamp -
Green Dream -
I -
Kenneth Freeman -
krishna e bera -
Marcel Krzystek -
Mirimir -
Tristan -
Volker Mink -
Zenaan Harkness