Tor website overhaul -- who deserves punishment?
Not sure if this is the right place to vent, but here goes: Whoever changed the Tor website's design seems to a) have a serious vision impairment and b) done his utmost to hide access to the Tor source code. I think the site feels dumbed down to cater only to those with the shortest attention spans (and bad eyesight) now. Also, as a relay and exit operator, I care most about the source code and documentation, not some management summary. Was there no QA process involved before rolling out the new website? Annoyed, Ralph
Hi Ralph, On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 05:10:08PM +0100, Ralph Seichter wrote:
Not sure if this is the right place to vent, but here goes:
Whoever changed the Tor website's design seems to a) have a serious vision impairment and b) done his utmost to hide access to the Tor source code.
Please be respectful. The tone of this message is disrespectful of the time, effort, and skill that went into launching the new website. It's unfortunate you do not appreciate or like the new site, but that does not excuse you. The source code has not moved, it is still available at gitweb.torproject.org, as usual. If you're looking for the download page, then there is an open bug for that, see [0]. [0] https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/29907
I think the site feels dumbed down to cater only to those with the shortest attention spans (and bad eyesight) now. Also, as a relay and exit operator, I care most about the source code and documentation, not some management summary.
Thank you for running these relay, we all appreciate it. The website, however, is intended for a diverse audience, and most people are not familiar with Tor. This new website is significantly better and more welcoming for the general population, rather than a small percentage of the population. If you have suggestions for improving the new design, then please let us know. Sincerely, Matt
* Matthew Finkel:
Please be respectful. The tone of this message is disrespectful of the time, effort, and skill that went into launching the new website. It's unfortunate you do not appreciate or like the new site, but that does not excuse you.
Disrespectful for you, maybe. I did not name names. Besides, I won't feign to care about time and effort spent when I consider the result not worth said time and effort. I don't hand out medals or diplomas for trying/participating. You probably get the gist. ;-)
This new website is significantly better and more welcoming for the general population, rather than a small percentage of the population.
I respect your right to have that opinion, although I disagree. What metrics you believe to support your "significantly better" I don't know.
If you have suggestions for improving the new design, then please let us know.
I suggest reverting to the previous website design. That design was, IMO, "welcoming for the general population" in the sense that it treated visitors as intelligent beings, capable of reading more than a few buzzwords. I find it alarming that a certain school of web designers these days seem to think their audience has the attention span of fruit flies. From where I am standing, *that* is disrespectful. -Ralph
Ralph Seichter:
* Matthew Finkel:
Please be respectful. The tone of this message is disrespectful of the time, effort, and skill that went into launching the new website. It's unfortunate you do not appreciate or like the new site, but that does not excuse you.
Disrespectful for you, maybe. I did not name names. Besides, I won't feign to care about time and effort spent when I consider the result not worth said time and effort. I don't hand out medals or diplomas for trying/participating. You probably get the gist. ;-)
I agree with Matthew that your email was very rude. Basic human decency is not "hand[ing] out medals or diplomas for trying/participating". Please do better. We are all working hard on Tor, many of us volunteers, and we should treat one another as community.
This new website is significantly better and more welcoming for the general population, rather than a small percentage of the population.
I respect your right to have that opinion, although I disagree. What metrics you believe to support your "significantly better" I don't know.
The redesign efforts were based on user testing as well as research on usability, accessibility, and localization. I am personally excited for how much easier it will be for our users to find what they're looking for, and how much easier it will be to translate this new site into many languages.
If you have suggestions for improving the new design, then please let us know.
I suggest reverting to the previous website design. That design was, IMO, "welcoming for the general population" in the sense that it treated visitors as intelligent beings, capable of reading more than a few buzzwords. I find it alarming that a certain school of web designers these days seem to think their audience has the attention span of fruit flies. From where I am standing, *that* is disrespectful.
-Ralph
Okay, you are entitled to your opinion as well. Please also be kind. And finally, this is a mailing list for tor-relays. Please stay on topic. Alison
* Alison Macrina:
I agree with Matthew that your email was very rude.
I don't. "Satire, artistic form, chiefly literary and dramatic, in which human or individual vices, follies, abuses, or shortcomings are held up to censure by means of ridicule, derision, burlesque, irony, parody, caricature, or other methods [...]" (From: https://www.britannica.com/art/satire) Oh, the pitfalls of nonverbal communication...
And finally, this is a mailing list for tor-relays. Please stay on topic.
Finally? :-D What nerve. No longer being able to easily access the Tor documentation and source code *is* on topic here. That's the reason I posted in the first place. -Ralph
Alison, can you please share a link to the results of 'user testing as well as research on usability, accessibility, and localization'? I most definitely welcome the idea of making Tor look modern (and would like to help if I can) but it would be good to see what standards the development team is following to get there. I remember the 2018 redesign of Tor Metrics that prompted similar negative responses. Back then there was a giant quote taking up the top 1/3rd of the screen. Now half of my screen is covered with a large slogan that looks like a pornsite ad: "Browse privately. Explore freely.". At the bottom there is a header called "About Us" that is smaller than the others but the text under that header is enormous. Clicking "Documentation" at the very top takes me to the old white-green design. Etc. Nobody deserves punishment by the way. You all deserve enormous kudos for working on Tor. On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 10:39 AM Alison Macrina <alison@torproject.org> wrote:
Ralph Seichter:
* Matthew Finkel:
Please be respectful. The tone of this message is disrespectful of the time, effort, and skill that went into launching the new website. It's unfortunate you do not appreciate or like the new site, but that does not excuse you.
Disrespectful for you, maybe. I did not name names. Besides, I won't feign to care about time and effort spent when I consider the result not worth said time and effort. I don't hand out medals or diplomas for trying/participating. You probably get the gist. ;-)
I agree with Matthew that your email was very rude. Basic human decency is not "hand[ing] out medals or diplomas for trying/participating". Please do better. We are all working hard on Tor, many of us volunteers, and we should treat one another as community.
This new website is significantly better and more welcoming for the general population, rather than a small percentage of the population.
I respect your right to have that opinion, although I disagree. What metrics you believe to support your "significantly better" I don't know.
The redesign efforts were based on user testing as well as research on usability, accessibility, and localization. I am personally excited for how much easier it will be for our users to find what they're looking for, and how much easier it will be to translate this new site into many languages.
If you have suggestions for improving the new design, then please let us know.
I suggest reverting to the previous website design. That design was, IMO, "welcoming for the general population" in the sense that it treated visitors as intelligent beings, capable of reading more than a few buzzwords. I find it alarming that a certain school of web designers these days seem to think their audience has the attention span of fruit flies. From where I am standing, *that* is disrespectful.
-Ralph
Okay, you are entitled to your opinion as well. Please also be kind. And finally, this is a mailing list for tor-relays. Please stay on topic.
Alison _______________________________________________ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
Matthew Finkel:
Please be respectful. The tone of this message is disrespectful
Thank you Matthew for spelling that out, I found this email and in particular "who deserves punishment?" rather harsh. -- https://twitter.com/nusenu_ https://mastodon.social/@nusenu
On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 05:13:00PM +0000, nusenu wrote:
Matthew Finkel:
Please be respectful. The tone of this message is disrespectful
Thank you Matthew for spelling that out, I found this email and in particular "who deserves punishment?" rather harsh.
-- https://twitter.com/nusenu_ https://mastodon.social/@nusenu
Seconded... It's one thing to provide constructive feedback in the *correct* venue, but far from what happened here. Have some empathy, Ralph.
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On Wed, 27 Mar 2019 at 22:10, I <beatthebastards@inbox.com> wrote:
Where is the equivalent of https://www.torproject.org/docs/debian.html.en?
https://2019.www.torproject.org/docs/debian.html.en (From the Documentation link at the top)
How about a 'site map' at the bottom. Then one could easily navigate to their desired page. On 2019-03-27 5:40 p.m., I wrote:
Thanks. I think that would be better called Guides.
-----Original Message----- *From:* pterjan@gmail.com
On Wed, 27 Mar 2019 at 22:10, I <beatthebastards@inbox.com> wrote: > > Where is the equivalent of https://www.torproject.org/docs/debian.html.en?
https://2019.www.torproject.org/docs/debian.html.en (From the Documentation link at the top)
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On 03/27/2019 09:10 AM, Ralph Seichter wrote:
Not sure if this is the right place to vent, but here goes:
Whoever changed the Tor website's design seems to a) have a serious vision impairment and b) done his utmost to hide access to the Tor source code.
I think the site feels dumbed down to cater only to those with the shortest attention spans (and bad eyesight) now. Also, as a relay and exit operator, I care most about the source code and documentation, not some management summary.
Was there no QA process involved before rolling out the new website?
Annoyed, Ralph
Well, it's obviously targeted at mobile devices. And it's too bad that there's no link to a desktop version.
On 2019-03-27 16:34, Mirimir wrote:
On 03/27/2019 09:10 AM, Ralph Seichter wrote:
Not sure if this is the right place to vent, but here goes:
Whoever changed the Tor website's design seems to a) have a serious vision impairment and b) done his utmost to hide access to the Tor source code.
I think the site feels dumbed down to cater only to those with the shortest attention spans (and bad eyesight) now. Also, as a relay and exit operator, I care most about the source code and documentation, not some management summary.
Was there no QA process involved before rolling out the new website?
Annoyed, Ralph
Well, it's obviously targeted at mobile devices.
And it's too bad that there's no link to a desktop version.
Works fine from my desktop. Perhaps you have your browser window sized to mimic a mobile device?
On 03/27/2019 03:50 PM, Dave Warren wrote:
On 2019-03-27 16:34, Mirimir wrote:
On 03/27/2019 09:10 AM, Ralph Seichter wrote:
Not sure if this is the right place to vent, but here goes:
Whoever changed the Tor website's design seems to a) have a serious vision impairment and b) done his utmost to hide access to the Tor source code.
I think the site feels dumbed down to cater only to those with the shortest attention spans (and bad eyesight) now. Also, as a relay and exit operator, I care most about the source code and documentation, not some management summary.
Was there no QA process involved before rolling out the new website?
Annoyed, Ralph
Well, it's obviously targeted at mobile devices.
And it's too bad that there's no link to a desktop version.
Works fine from my desktop. Perhaps you have your browser window sized to mimic a mobile device?
I didn't say that it didn't "work". I said that it's "targeted at mobile devices". And it obviously is. Narrow. Huge typefaces. Huge images. And worse, it doesn't even flow into multiple columns with large windows. It all just gets bigger. Even I could hack that, and I'm no web developer. See https://vpntesting.info/. In mobile devices, it's one column. In desktops, it's two columns.
On 3/28/19 12:34 AM, Mirimir wrote:
On 03/27/2019 09:10 AM, Ralph Seichter wrote:
Not sure if this is the right place to vent, but here goes:
Whoever changed the Tor website's design seems to a) have a serious vision impairment and b) done his utmost to hide access to the Tor source code.
I think the site feels dumbed down to cater only to those with the shortest attention spans (and bad eyesight) now. Also, as a relay and exit operator, I care most about the source code and documentation, not some management summary.
Was there no QA process involved before rolling out the new website?
Annoyed, Ralph
Well, it's obviously targeted at mobile devices.
And it's too bad that there's no link to a desktop version.
Part of the problem, for my use, is the banner which is fixed and won't scroll out of the way, eating up screen real estate instead of showing the information I am looking for. I've gotten rather quick with editing via the browser's Inspect Element function in other contexts, it can be used here too. However, it would be better if the page were designed with more usability in mind. As for the information I was looking for, the web site's apparent exclusive focus on just the Tor Browser is a big negative change for those looking for Tor itself. But about the problematic layout that now exists, in general, the CSS media rule mixes all types of screens together regardless of orientation, aspect ratio or size. So mobile and multi-screen desktops all fall under the 'all' or 'screen' values. /Lars
Lars Noodén: [snip]
But about the problematic layout that now exists, in general, the CSS media rule mixes all types of screens together regardless of orientation, aspect ratio or size. So mobile and multi-screen desktops all fall under the 'all' or 'screen' values.
Thanks for the feedback. I opened https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/29934 for that. Georg
On 3/28/19 11:14 AM, Georg Koppen wrote:
Lars Noodén:
[snip]
But about the problematic layout that now exists, in general, the CSS media rule mixes all types of screens together regardless of orientation, aspect ratio or size. So mobile and multi-screen desktops all fall under the 'all' or 'screen' values.
Thanks for the feedback. I opened https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/29934 for that.
Georg
Ok. Thanks. I mean that the CSS 'media' rule itself is incapable of differentiating screen types. So with the Tor Project's web page, it looks like the route was take to pus a mobile style layout onto all visitors regardless. I do notice that there is an additional rule set for print. If I were to print, I would want the URLs to be visible on the page: @media print { a { font-weight: bolder; text-decoration: none; } a[href^=http]:after { content:" <" attr(href) "> "; } However, my main reason for getting involved in the thread is a request to allow the banner to scroll so it is not clogging up the window and blocking up the content. Therefore the second line here needs to go: .fixed-top { position: fixed; top: 0; right: 0; left: 0; z-index: 1030; } So that it becomes .fixed-top { top: 0; right: 0; left: 0; z-index: 1030; } and thus allows scrolling. /Lars
On Thu, Mar 28, 2019, at 06:28, Lars Noodén wrote:
On 3/28/19 11:14 AM, Georg Koppen wrote:
Lars Noodén:
[snip]
But about the problematic layout that now exists, in general, the CSS media rule mixes all types of screens together regardless of orientation, aspect ratio or size. So mobile and multi-screen desktops all fall under the 'all' or 'screen' values.
Thanks for the feedback. I opened https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/29934 for that.
Georg
Ok. Thanks. I mean that the CSS 'media' rule itself is incapable of differentiating screen types. So with the Tor Project's web page, it looks like the route was take to pus a mobile style layout onto all visitors regardless.
Interestingly the /about/people/ page does seem to be responsive, handling various browser widths.
On 3/30/19 1:28 AM, Dave Warren wrote:
On Thu, Mar 28, 2019, at 06:28, Lars Noodén wrote:
On 3/28/19 11:14 AM, Georg Koppen wrote:
Lars Noodén:
[snip]
But about the problematic layout that now exists, in general, the CSS media rule mixes all types of screens together regardless of orientation, aspect ratio or size. So mobile and multi-screen desktops all fall under the 'all' or 'screen' values.
Thanks for the feedback. I opened https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/29934 for that.
Georg
Ok. Thanks. I mean that the CSS 'media' rule itself is incapable of differentiating screen types. So with the Tor Project's web page, it looks like the route was take to pus a mobile style layout onto all visitors regardless.
Interestingly the /about/people/ page does seem to be responsive, handling various browser widths.
But not the various browser heights. The header is still consuming space even when one scrolls to the end of that page. /Lars
On 3/30/19 6:30 AM, Lars Noodén wrote:
On 3/30/19 1:28 AM, Dave Warren wrote:
On Thu, Mar 28, 2019, at 06:28, Lars Noodén wrote:
On 3/28/19 11:14 AM, Georg Koppen wrote:
Lars Noodén:
[snip]
But about the problematic layout that now exists, in general, the CSS media rule mixes all types of screens together regardless of orientation, aspect ratio or size. So mobile and multi-screen desktops all fall under the 'all' or 'screen' values.
Thanks for the feedback. I opened https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/29934 for that.
Georg
Ok. Thanks. I mean that the CSS 'media' rule itself is incapable of differentiating screen types. So with the Tor Project's web page, it looks like the route was take to pus a mobile style layout onto all visitors regardless.
Interestingly the /about/people/ page does seem to be responsive, handling various browser widths.
But not the various browser heights. The header is still consuming space even when one scrolls to the end of that page.
/Lars
Sorry for the self-reply. I meant to write 'toward' instead of 'to' /Lars
Hi all, I think the new website looks pretty nice, it has a good looking design and everything. But if I may, there is one question I have, where can the tor expert bundle be downloaded from now? Thank you. --Keifer On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 9:32 PM Lars Noodén <lars.nooden@gmail.com> wrote:
On 3/30/19 6:30 AM, Lars Noodén wrote:
On 3/30/19 1:28 AM, Dave Warren wrote:
On Thu, Mar 28, 2019, at 06:28, Lars Noodén wrote:
On 3/28/19 11:14 AM, Georg Koppen wrote:
Lars Noodén:
[snip]
But about the problematic layout that now exists, in general, the CSS media rule mixes all types of screens together regardless of orientation, aspect ratio or size. So mobile and multi-screen desktops all fall under the 'all' or 'screen' values.
Thanks for the feedback. I opened https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/29934 for that.
Georg
Ok. Thanks. I mean that the CSS 'media' rule itself is incapable of differentiating screen types. So with the Tor Project's web page, it looks like the route was take to pus a mobile style layout onto all visitors regardless.
Interestingly the /about/people/ page does seem to be responsive, handling various browser widths.
But not the various browser heights. The header is still consuming space even when one scrolls to the end of that page.
/Lars
Sorry for the self-reply. I meant to write 'toward' instead of 'to'
/Lars
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participants (15)
-
Alison Macrina -
Dave Warren -
G -
Georg Koppen -
I -
Igor Mitrofanov -
Jordan -
Keifer Bly -
Lars Noodén -
Matthew Finkel -
Mirimir -
nusenu -
Pascal Terjan -
Ralph Seichter -
Volker Mink