Fw: german plans on banning TOR
Please see below, as well as (German) legislation: https://www.bundesrat.de/SharedDocs/drucksachen/2019/0001-0100/33-19.pdf?__b.... Bigger picture likely to be behind as pointed out some days ago. Shit like this adding to tightening police forces' legislations in various Federal States in not-so Good Old Germany. -- Herbert Karl Mathé mail@hkmathe.de PGP B9BF953500452875 https://www.hkmathe.de/pub_key_16-07-09.txt @hkmathe Beethovenstr. 13 60325 Frankfurt Germany Begin forwarded message: Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2019 22:39:47 +0100 From: Herbert Karl Mathé <mail@hkmathe.de> To: niftybunny <abuse@to-surf-and-protect.net> Cc: tor-relays@lists.torproject.org Subject: Re: [tor-relays] german plans on banning TOR Let's be pragmatic: There's "anti-darkweb" propaganda been quite a while going on, mainly by Federal Criminal Police Office, backed up by Christian (so-called) Democrats, and the Nazi party, sure, pointing out like lots of children's lives could be saved, or saved from being abused, resp., when vanquishing "The Darkweb". Trucks (lorries), knifes, or similar potentially lethal objects are not on their agenda. Police spokespersons around the clock complaining being substantially disadvantaged - should say: retarded??? Unsurprisingly, police forces in any legislation are not neutral, these do not at all mirror society and its inherent diversity. Plus, police forces very indirectly are serving the public, with any misdemeanor or assaults to be prosecuted not before afterwards by taking complex, costly and risky legal actions, never immediately, or right in place. That makes a huge difference. What this legislation is very likely ending up is various courts ruling through verdicts on eventually shutting down specific sites. These verdicts might easily appear as being random, which is due to immense lack of in-depth knowledge in related matters (see file sharing dissuasions by dedicated law firms being backed by courts having difficulties understanding IP addresses), also due to each and every court ruling independent which makes it like gambling, these courts at the same time being highly susceptible to what is believed by them to be public opinion. The latter is what's being made up right with this legislative initiative, leveraging Tor Project for staging some threat model. Cynically enough, threat (by The Onion) again is from foreign, just like for some time refugees had been said to be (evil propaganda which obviously, and thank god, did not fully work out). In phase of weakness, it's always the outlandish being plead guilty, being abused to deviate from domestic, and home-made, self-made failure. No facts yet, just some reflected opinions - as soon as such legislation is out it'll be much harder to defend liberty. It's not about paragraphs, or bits and bytes, it's about freedom and democracy. Free press, and journalists as individuals will as consequence be under heavy suspicion for cooperating with elements of Dark Web. If Germany falls... -- Herbert Karl Mathé mail@hkmathe.de PGP B9BF953500452875 https://www.hkmathe.de/pub_key_16-07-09.txt @hkmathe Beethovenstr. 13 60325 Frankfurt Germany On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 21:19:23 +0100 niftybunny <abuse@to-surf-and-protect.net> wrote:
"Zum anderen ist die Zugänglichmachung jedes internetbasierten Angebots, das auf die Begehung jeglicher Straftaten gerichtet ist, gleichermaßen strafwürdig."
Thats every ISP on the world. Every ISP on the world lets you connect to the internet. What they want to do is outlaw the running of markets who promote drugs, weapons and cheese pizza. Thats already the case. The just want it in one law so they don't have to process several accusations.
I read it weeks ago and Tor will not be outlawed in this case.
"Betreiber, deren Angebote ohne entsprechende Zielrichtung zur Förderung von Straftaten genutzt werden, vom Tatbestand ausgenommen. “
Ebay will not get fucked, only if you have a market which prime directive is to sell drugs, weapons and CP.
Referenced to § 129 StGB in the text: reference is made to membership in a criminal organization. The Tor project will then be declared as such.
Dear god …
On 6. Mar 2019, at 20:35, Olaf Grimm <jeep665@posteo.de> wrote:
Some contradictions in the recommendations of the committee:
Take a look on page 6 and 7 (in german, translation of the sentences below).
"Zum anderen ist die Zugänglichmachung jedes internetbasierten Angebots, das auf die Begehung jeglicher Straftaten gerichtet ist, gleichermaßen strafwürdig."
"Second, the availability of each Internet-based offer, based on the commission of any Criminal offenses is equally punishable."
"Betreiber, deren Angebote ohne entsprechende Zielrichtung zur Förderung von Straftaten genutzt werden, vom Tatbestand ausgenommen. "
"Operators whose offers are used without appropriate target direction for the promotion of criminal offenses be excluded from the facts."
https://www.bundesrat.de/SharedDocs/drucksachen/2019/0001-0100/33-1-19.pdf?_... <https://www.bundesrat.de/SharedDocs/drucksachen/2019/0001-0100/33-1-19.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=1>
I think that's the first step to forbid Tor. The text indicates operators. Is my relay abroad illegal because I'm German? Referenced to § 129 StGB in the text: reference is made to membership in a criminal organization. The Tor project will then be declared as such.
Olaf
Am 06.03.19 um 15:47 schrieb Volker Mink: [...]
_______________________________________________ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
Am 15.03.2019 um 14:43 schrieb Volker Mink:
Fellow friends, the times are a'changing... https://netzpolitik.org/2019/bundesrat-bringt-darknet-gesetz-auf-den-weg/
German gouvernment signs new darknet laws.
Please don't cite and translate the article in a way which can be misleading. First of all nothing is decided yet. The federal council (Bundesrat) made a motion and suggests to implement a law which will hurt tor. The motion must pass parliament before it will turn into a law.
*Gesendet:* Montag, 11. März 2019 um 21:52 Uhr *Von:* "Herbert Karl Mathé" <mail@hkmathe.de> *An:* tor-talk <tor-talk@lists.torproject.org>, tor-relays <tor-relays@lists.torproject.org>, "Seth David Schoen" <schoen@eff.org> *Betreff:* [tor-relays] Fw: german plans on banning TOR Please see below, as well as (German) legislation: https://www.bundesrat.de/SharedDocs/drucksachen/2019/0001-0100/33-19.pdf?__b....
Bigger picture likely to be behind as pointed out some days ago.
Shit like this adding to tightening police forces' legislations in various Federal States in not-so Good Old Germany.
-- Herbert Karl Mathé
mail@hkmathe.de PGP B9BF953500452875 https://www.hkmathe.de/pub_key_16-07-09.txt @hkmathe Beethovenstr. 13 60325 Frankfurt Germany
Begin forwarded message:
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2019 22:39:47 +0100 From: Herbert Karl Mathé <mail@hkmathe.de> To: niftybunny <abuse@to-surf-and-protect.net> Cc: tor-relays@lists.torproject.org Subject: Re: [tor-relays] german plans on banning TOR
Let's be pragmatic:
There's "anti-darkweb" propaganda been quite a while going on, mainly by Federal Criminal Police Office, backed up by Christian (so-called) Democrats, and the Nazi party, sure, pointing out like lots of children's lives could be saved, or saved from being abused, resp., when vanquishing "The Darkweb". Trucks (lorries), knifes, or similar potentially lethal objects are not on their agenda. Police spokespersons around the clock complaining being substantially disadvantaged - should say: retarded???
Unsurprisingly, police forces in any legislation are not neutral, these do not at all mirror society and its inherent diversity. Plus, police forces very indirectly are serving the public, with any misdemeanor or assaults to be prosecuted not before afterwards by taking complex, costly and risky legal actions, never immediately, or right in place. That makes a huge difference.
What this legislation is very likely ending up is various courts ruling through verdicts on eventually shutting down specific sites. These verdicts might easily appear as being random, which is due to immense lack of in-depth knowledge in related matters (see file sharing dissuasions by dedicated law firms being backed by courts having difficulties understanding IP addresses), also due to each and every court ruling independent which makes it like gambling, these courts at the same time being highly susceptible to what is believed by them to be public opinion.
The latter is what's being made up right with this legislative initiative, leveraging Tor Project for staging some threat model. Cynically enough, threat (by The Onion) again is from foreign, just like for some time refugees had been said to be (evil propaganda which obviously, and thank god, did not fully work out).
In phase of weakness, it's always the outlandish being plead guilty, being abused to deviate from domestic, and home-made, self-made failure.
No facts yet, just some reflected opinions - as soon as such legislation is out it'll be much harder to defend liberty. It's not about paragraphs, or bits and bytes, it's about freedom and democracy.
Free press, and journalists as individuals will as consequence be under heavy suspicion for cooperating with elements of Dark Web.
If Germany falls...
-- Herbert Karl Mathé
mail@hkmathe.de PGP B9BF953500452875 https://www.hkmathe.de/pub_key_16-07-09.txt @hkmathe Beethovenstr. 13 60325 Frankfurt Germany
On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 21:19:23 +0100 niftybunny <abuse@to-surf-and-protect.net> wrote:
"Zum anderen ist die Zugänglichmachung jedes internetbasierten Angebots, das auf die Begehung jeglicher Straftaten gerichtet ist, gleichermaßen strafwürdig."
Thats every ISP on the world. Every ISP on the world lets you connect to the internet. What they want to do is outlaw the running of markets who promote drugs, weapons and cheese pizza. Thats already the case. The just want it in one law so they don't have to process several accusations.
I read it weeks ago and Tor will not be outlawed in this case.
"Betreiber, deren Angebote ohne entsprechende Zielrichtung zur Förderung von Straftaten genutzt werden, vom Tatbestand ausgenommen. “
Ebay will not get fucked, only if you have a market which prime directive is to sell drugs, weapons and CP.
Referenced to § 129 StGB in the text: reference is made to membership in a criminal organization. The Tor project will then be declared as such.
Dear god …
On 6. Mar 2019, at 20:35, Olaf Grimm <jeep665@posteo.de> wrote:
Some contradictions in the recommendations of the committee:
Take a look on page 6 and 7 (in german, translation of the sentences below).
"Zum anderen ist die Zugänglichmachung jedes internetbasierten Angebots, das auf die Begehung jeglicher Straftaten gerichtet ist, gleichermaßen strafwürdig."
"Second, the availability of each Internet-based offer, based on the commission of any Criminal offenses is equally punishable."
"Betreiber, deren Angebote ohne entsprechende Zielrichtung zur Förderung von Straftaten genutzt werden, vom Tatbestand ausgenommen. "
"Operators whose offers are used without appropriate target direction for the promotion of criminal offenses be excluded from the facts."
https://www.bundesrat.de/SharedDocs/drucksachen/2019/0001-0100/33-1-19.pdf?_... <https://www.bundesrat.de/SharedDocs/drucksachen/2019/0001-0100/33-1-19.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=1>
I think that's the first step to forbid Tor. The text indicates
operators. Is my relay abroad illegal because I'm German?
Referenced to § 129 StGB in the text: reference is made to membership in a criminal organization. The Tor project will then be declared as such.
Olaf
Am 06.03.19 um 15:47 schrieb Volker Mink: [...]
_______________________________________________ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
_______________________________________________ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
_______________________________________________ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
participants (3)
-
Herbert Karl Mathé -
Thomas Braun -
Volker Mink