I think it's unfair to characterize the Tor community as a Linux club, or religious about operating systems. There is a whole big world of operating systems out there, and most (not all) have a very POSIX flavor to them that makes it pretty easy to generalize advice on running the service. The work that I'm doing right now is around packaging Tor for OmniOS (and writing doc around using them together), which is pretty obscure and has no relationship to Linux. There's definitely software out there that assumes you're building it on Linux, running it on Linux, but Tor is definitely not one of them.
Windows is the only really prominent OS that I can think of off the top of my head that has no significant POSIX flavor to it. Its heritage is more from DOS and VMS than anything. It's an odd bird for people who otherwise work in POSIX platforms all of the time. Be thankful Tor runs there at all. Supporting Windows on a cross-platform app is no small feat.
Maybe instead of throwing shade at the EFF, take a stab at fixing the problem yourself? The EFF is not some multi-billion dollar software company, isn't staffed with an army of engineers and tech writers looking for something to do. And, if they were, I've got doubts that the cost/benefit analysis on supporting Windows as a relay platform would turn out in your favor.
If you're really dedicated to running a big Tor relay, and can't be bothered to help improve the documentation for Windows relay operators, time to learn a new tool and maybe not be so religious about running Windows for all the things? I think I've got 5 different OS's that I'm managing right now. No big deal. That's the beauty of the other side of the Windows fence. Once you learn one, it's easy to learn the rest.
-M
Sent from [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.ch), encrypted email based in Switzerland.
-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [tor-relays] How to Run High Capacity Tor Relays Time (GMT): Jul 22 2015 12:14:56 From: ben@reefsolutions.com To: tor-relays@lists.torproject.org
Robert: you're right. The group in general isn't very knowledge about Windows. I'm a Windows sysadmin and spent a long time deciphering the Tor documentation on windows and it's poor. Best info was another operator who posted on the mailing list months ago. I've reached out to the website maintainers and gotten radio silence on updating the Wiki for Windows. I've added other things to the wiki though (on exits). I'm a bit perplexed on the OS religiousness since we need more inclusive for Tor relays. We need a status of liberty, and the EFF's push isn't enough.
Sigh.... -Ben
-----Original Message----- From: tor-relays [mailto:tor-relays-bounces@lists.torproject.org] On Behalf Of I Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2015 8:29 PM To: tor-relays@lists.torproject.org Subject: Re: [tor-relays] How to Run High Capacity Tor Relays
Moritz and all,
I mean no offence to anyone since we're all in this for the greater good, but really approaching joining the Tor community is pretty hard if you are not a Linux wiz and know about servers or a number of other things.
I have tried to look around the multitude of interconnecting links but a lot are out of sync slightly or are not clear because of presumed knowledge and understanding or are irrelevant because of evolution
Wouldn't it be better to be clear and neat in the way Torservers guides are? Would someone presume the Torproject installation guide was not complete and know where to look?
Robert
On 07/22/2015 01:34 AM, I wrote:
https://www.torservers.net/wiki/setup/server has excellent guidance for setting-up relays seriously. Would those at Torproject think about linking to it from their installation guides?
Robert
https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/doc/TorExitGuidelines links to it, as well as to https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/doc/TorRelaySecurity . Both these pages could use some overhaul, but they're not too bad.
-- Moritz Bartl
_______________________________________________ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays _______________________________________________ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
Windows has a very significant percentage of the server market share, and more attention should be focused on this part of the Tor Server development. Right now, it’s a very complicated install/config on a Windows OS which is disappointing and prevents greater adoption (the end goal of Tor is greater adoption to increase privacy). Windows sysadmin aren’t used to tweaking config files and the posted documentation isn’t good (repeated requested for me to update have gone unanswered). If donating to the project to promote Tor on Windows existed, I would. I have been donating to EFF for many years, but decided more “action” was needed. I still donate to them.
Also, I’m a member of EFF, so maybe you didn’t understand my email since I don’t know what you meant by “throw a shade”. EFF is not related to Tor, so I think you’re a bit confused on that. EFF is focused on electronic freedoms (e.g. free speech, fair use, privacy, etc) and they’ve been promoting people (what I’ve seen in the USA) to adopt and add Tor relays (hence I added Tor relays (middle + exit). EFF and Tor are not connected. EFF is merely promoting Tor relay adoption.
https://www.eff.org/torchallenge/
-Ben
From: Magnus Hedemark [mailto:magnus.hedemark@protonmail.ch] Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2015 8:33 AM To: Ben Serebin; tor-relays@lists.torproject.org Subject: Re: [tor-relays] How to Run High Capacity Tor Relays
I think it's unfair to characterize the Tor community as a Linux club, or religious about operating systems. There is a whole big world of operating systems out there, and most (not all) have a very POSIX flavor to them that makes it pretty easy to generalize advice on running the service. The work that I'm doing right now is around packaging Tor for OmniOS (and writing doc around using them together), which is pretty obscure and has no relationship to Linux. There's definitely software out there that assumes you're building it on Linux, running it on Linux, but Tor is definitely not one of them.
Windows is the only really prominent OS that I can think of off the top of my head that has no significant POSIX flavor to it. Its heritage is more from DOS and VMS than anything. It's an odd bird for people who otherwise work in POSIX platforms all of the time. Be thankful Tor runs there at all. Supporting Windows on a cross-platform app is no small feat.
Maybe instead of throwing shade at the EFF, take a stab at fixing the problem yourself? The EFF is not some multi-billion dollar software company, isn't staffed with an army of engineers and tech writers looking for something to do. And, if they were, I've got doubts that the cost/benefit analysis on supporting Windows as a relay platform would turn out in your favor.
If you're really dedicated to running a big Tor relay, and can't be bothered to help improve the documentation for Windows relay operators, time to learn a new tool and maybe not be so religious about running Windows for all the things? I think I've got 5 different OS's that I'm managing right now. No big deal. That's the beauty of the other side of the Windows fence. Once you learn one, it's easy to learn the rest.
-M
Sent from ProtonMailhttps://protonmail.ch, encrypted email based in Switzerland. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [tor-relays] How to Run High Capacity Tor Relays Time (GMT): Jul 22 2015 12:14:56 From: ben@reefsolutions.commailto:ben@reefsolutions.com To: tor-relays@lists.torproject.orgmailto:tor-relays@lists.torproject.org
Robert: you're right. The group in general isn't very knowledge about Windows. I'm a Windows sysadmin and spent a long time deciphering the Tor documentation on windows and it's poor. Best info was another operator who posted on the mailing list months ago. I've reached out to the website maintainers and gotten radio silence on updating the Wiki for Windows. I've added other things to the wiki though (on exits). I'm a bit perplexed on the OS religiousness since we need more inclusive for Tor relays. We need a status of liberty, and the EFF's push isn't enough.
Sigh.... -Ben
-----Original Message----- From: tor-relays [mailto:tor-relays-bounces@lists.torproject.org] On Behalf Of I Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2015 8:29 PM To: tor-relays@lists.torproject.orgmailto:tor-relays@lists.torproject.org Subject: Re: [tor-relays] How to Run High Capacity Tor Relays
Moritz and all,
I mean no offence to anyone since we're all in this for the greater good, but really approaching joining the Tor community is pretty hard if you are not a Linux wiz and know about servers or a number of other things.
I have tried to look around the multitude of interconnecting links but a lot are out of sync slightly or are not clear because of presumed knowledge and understanding or are irrelevant because of evolution
Wouldn't it be better to be clear and neat in the way Torservers guides are? Would someone presume the Torproject installation guide was not complete and know where to look?
Robert
On 07/22/2015 01:34 AM, I wrote:
https://www.torservers.net/wiki/setup/server has excellent guidance for setting-up relays seriously. Would those at Torproject think about linking to it from their installation guides?
Robert
https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/doc/TorExitGuidelines links to it, as well as to https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/doc/TorRelaySecurity . Both these pages could use some overhaul, but they're not too bad.
-- Moritz Bartl
_______________________________________________ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.orgmailto:tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays _______________________________________________ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.orgmailto:tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
On 3 Aug 2015, at 22:19 , Ben Serebin ben@reefsolutions.com wrote:
Windows has a very significant percentage of the server market share, and more attention should be focused on this part of the Tor Server development. Right now, it’s a very complicated install/config on a Windows OS which is disappointing and prevents greater adoption (the end goal of Tor is greater adoption to increase privacy). Windows sysadmin aren’t used to tweaking config files and the posted documentation isn’t good (repeated requested for me to update have gone unanswered).
What are the Trac ticket numbers of these documentation change requests? (Or are they on the wiki? Anyone can modify the wiki.)
If donating to the project to promote Tor on Windows existed, I would.
Please log a Trac ticket for this - it sounds like an excellent idea.
I have been donating to EFF for many years, but decided more “action” was needed. I still donate to them.
Also, I’m a member of EFF, so maybe you didn’t understand my email since I don’t know what you meant by “throw a shade”. EFF is not related to Tor, so I think you’re a bit confused on that. EFF is focused on electronic freedoms (e.g. free speech, fair use, privacy, etc) and they’ve been promoting people (what I’ve seen in the USA) to adopt and add Tor relays (hence I added Tor relays (middle + exit). EFF and Tor are not connected. EFF is merely promoting Tor relay adoption.
https://www.eff.org/torchallenge/ https://www.eff.org/torchallenge/
-Ben
From: Magnus Hedemark [mailto:magnus.hedemark@protonmail.ch] Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2015 8:33 AM To: Ben Serebin; tor-relays@lists.torproject.org Subject: Re: [tor-relays] How to Run High Capacity Tor Relays
I think it's unfair to characterize the Tor community as a Linux club, or religious about operating systems. There is a whole big world of operating systems out there, and most (not all) have a very POSIX flavor to them that makes it pretty easy to generalize advice on running the service. The work that I'm doing right now is around packaging Tor for OmniOS (and writing doc around using them together), which is pretty obscure and has no relationship to Linux. There's definitely software out there that assumes you're building it on Linux, running it on Linux, but Tor is definitely not one of them.
Windows is the only really prominent OS that I can think of off the top of my head that has no significant POSIX flavor to it. Its heritage is more from DOS and VMS than anything. It's an odd bird for people who otherwise work in POSIX platforms all of the time. Be thankful Tor runs there at all. Supporting Windows on a cross-platform app is no small feat.
Maybe instead of throwing shade at the EFF, take a stab at fixing the problem yourself? The EFF is not some multi-billion dollar software company, isn't staffed with an army of engineers and tech writers looking for something to do. And, if they were, I've got doubts that the cost/benefit analysis on supporting Windows as a relay platform would turn out in your favor.
If you're really dedicated to running a big Tor relay, and can't be bothered to help improve the documentation for Windows relay operators, time to learn a new tool and maybe not be so religious about running Windows for all the things? I think I've got 5 different OS's that I'm managing right now. No big deal. That's the beauty of the other side of the Windows fence. Once you learn one, it's easy to learn the rest.
-M
Sent from ProtonMail https://protonmail.ch/, encrypted email based in Switzerland. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [tor-relays] How to Run High Capacity Tor Relays Time (GMT): Jul 22 2015 12:14:56 From: ben@reefsolutions.com mailto:ben@reefsolutions.com To: tor-relays@lists.torproject.org mailto:tor-relays@lists.torproject.org
Robert: you're right. The group in general isn't very knowledge about Windows. I'm a Windows sysadmin and spent a long time deciphering the Tor documentation on windows and it's poor. Best info was another operator who posted on the mailing list months ago. I've reached out to the website maintainers and gotten radio silence on updating the Wiki for Windows. I've added other things to the wiki though (on exits). I'm a bit perplexed on the OS religiousness since we need more inclusive for Tor relays. We need a status of liberty, and the EFF's push isn't enough.
Sigh.... -Ben
-----Original Message----- From: tor-relays [mailto:tor-relays-bounces@lists.torproject.org mailto:tor-relays-bounces@lists.torproject.org] On Behalf Of I Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2015 8:29 PM To: tor-relays@lists.torproject.org mailto:tor-relays@lists.torproject.org Subject: Re: [tor-relays] How to Run High Capacity Tor Relays
Moritz and all,
I mean no offence to anyone since we're all in this for the greater good, but really approaching joining the Tor community is pretty hard if you are not a Linux wiz and know about servers or a number of other things.
I have tried to look around the multitude of interconnecting links but a lot are out of sync slightly or are not clear because of presumed knowledge and understanding or are irrelevant because of evolution
Wouldn't it be better to be clear and neat in the way Torservers guides are? Would someone presume the Torproject installation guide was not complete and know where to look?
Robert
On 07/22/2015 01:34 AM, I wrote:
https://www.torservers.net/wiki/setup/server https://www.torservers.net/wiki/setup/server has excellent guidance for setting-up relays seriously. Would those at Torproject think about linking to it from their installation guides?
Robert
https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/doc/TorExitGuidelines https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/doc/TorExitGuidelines links to it, as well as to https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/doc/TorRelaySecurity https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/doc/TorRelaySecurity . Both these pages could use some overhaul, but they're not too bad.
-- Moritz Bartl
tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org mailto:tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays _______________________________________________ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org mailto:tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays_______________________________________________ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
Tim Wilson-Brown (teor)
teor2345 at gmail dot com pgp ABFED1AC https://gist.github.com/teor2345/d033b8ce0a99adbc89c5
teor at blah dot im OTR D5BE4EC2 255D7585 F3874930 DB130265 7C9EBBC7
On Tue, 4 Aug 2015 00:25:56 +1000 teor teor2345@gmail.com wrote:
On 3 Aug 2015, at 22:19 , Ben Serebin ben@reefsolutions.com wrote:
Windows has a very significant percentage of the server market share, and more attention should be focused on this part of the Tor Server development. Right now, it’s a very complicated install/config on a Windows OS which is disappointing and prevents greater adoption (the end goal of Tor is greater adoption to increase privacy). Windows sysadmin aren’t used to tweaking config files and the posted documentation isn’t good (repeated requested for me to update have gone unanswered).
What are the Trac ticket numbers of these documentation change requests? (Or are they on the wiki? Anyone can modify the wiki.)
If donating to the project to promote Tor on Windows existed, I would.
Please log a Trac ticket for this - it sounds like an excellent idea.
Hm, doesn't running good relays on Windows (especially high capacity ones) require that we finish off the IOCP related work? IIRC that's what the bufferevent code was supposed to be for, but it hasn't been maintained in a while, and is known to be buggy.
Getting time/funding to work on that if my recollection is correct would be great I think.
Regards,
On 8/3/15, Yawning Angel yawning@schwanenlied.me wrote:
... Hm, doesn't running good relays on Windows (especially high capacity ones) require that we finish off the IOCP related work?
yes. this makes high performing Windows relays much more difficult in practice.
there are pages written years back in tor-talk, tor-dev, and tor-relays lists regarding the non paged pool, event handling, and other resources limits on Windows, which are still true today more or less.
IIRC that's what the bufferevent code was supposed to be for, but it hasn't been maintained in a while, and is known to be buggy.
speaking of buffer events and higher performance ... [ bump for threading thread ] *grin*
best regards,
tor-relays@lists.torproject.org
-
Ben Serebin -
coderman -
Magnus Hedemark -
teor -
Yawning Angel