Hello all,
Whenever I attend events with a large Pakistani or Indian contingent, I'm asked why there isn't an Urdu or Hindi translation of Tor Browser. And I'm not totally sure what to say. There's clearly a large need, given Pakistan's history internet censorship. At a recent event in DC, an activist from Pakistan spoke with me about increased surveillance in recent years, as well as the shocking trend of targeting activists with charges of blasphemy for criticizing the government. (Blasphemy is punishable by death, and those accused frequently do not survive until trial due to mob violence).
The situation in India is a bit different, but their need for online privacy much the same as like Pakistan they are subject to mass surveillance.
Both populations also have a large number of speakers: ~300M for Hindi and ~66M for Urdu.
What do you think?
~Griffin
On Sun, Apr 19, 2015 at 12:50:52AM -0400, Griffin Boyce wrote:
Both populations also have a large number of speakers: ~300M for Hindi and ~66M for Urdu.
I was really surprised; Hindi is the third-most spoken language in the world, trailing only Mandarin and English. Of the top 10 languages in this Wikipedia list, Tor Browser is missing localizations only for Hindi, Bengali, and Malay. (Urdu is #11.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_total_number_of_speakers
David
I was really surprised; Hindi is the third-most spoken language in the world, trailing only Mandarin and English. Of the top 10 languages in this Wikipedia list, Tor Browser is missing localizations only for Hindi, Bengali, and Malay. (Urdu is #11.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_total_number_of_speakers
There is a simple reason for this and while this may be anecdotal, this may shed some light on why there are no Hindi or Urdu translations of open source software: almost all users I know whose native language is Hindi, Bengali (or other Indic languages), use their OS and other software in English. (English is the official language of India and Pakistan, along with Hindi and Urdu respectively.) I am sure other users from India/Pakistan can back this up, but personally, even though my native language is Punjabi and Hindi, I have always selected "English" when installing Debian. Similary, I have almost never seen a copy of Windows in any of the local languages, anywhere in India.
The English precedence is slowly changing though, with more and more technology products being shipped in local languages so that they can reach populations that don't speak English (which is more in number than the population that can.)
So while my experience with this has been different from Griffin's in that no Tor user in India has asked me for a translation in their local language, I think the simple reason may be that English-speaking population doesn't feel the need and right now, they are the ones that dominate the online market. Not that this is an excuse for not having local translations, but I am stating the probable reasons for the lack of translations.
Sukhbir Singh wrote:
I am sure other users from India/Pakistan can back this up, but personally, even though my native language is Punjabi and Hindi, I have always selected "English" when installing Debian. Similary, I have almost never seen a copy of Windows in any of the local languages, anywhere in India.
The English precedence is slowly changing though, with more and more technology products being shipped in local languages so that they can reach populations that don't speak English (which is more in number than the population that can.)
These are great points, and the perspective is critical. It's worth noting I only speak English and by necessity only interact with people who also speak English. So frequently I have to wonder how that shapes my perspective and whether various users might have unmet needs. Whereas in your case, you've lived in some of these areas and speak Hindi so have a more realistic idea of what might be useful in India.
So while my experience with this has been different from Griffin's in that no Tor user in India has asked me for a translation in their local language, I think the simple reason may be that English-speaking population doesn't feel the need and right now, they are the ones that dominate the online market. Not that this is an excuse for not having local translations, but I am stating the probable reasons for the lack of translations.
Those who've approached me about Urdu have been trainers from Pakistan, and I'd imagine that as you say they are hoping to reach more users who don't speak English. But I'm not actually sure how to really measure need based on these individual interactions.
best, Griffin
Chiming in here as a frequent visitor to Pakistan - even the Internet cafes in the back of beyond NWFP frontier towns I've been to all have their OS'es in English. It's probably worth deciding on some critical mass of requests that once you receive it you decide to undertake a localization like this.
On Sun, Apr 19, 2015 at 1:35 AM, Griffin Boyce griffin@cryptolab.net wrote:
Sukhbir Singh wrote:
I am sure other users from India/Pakistan can back this up, but personally, even though my native language is Punjabi and Hindi, I have always selected "English" when installing Debian. Similary, I have almost never seen a copy of Windows in any of the local languages, anywhere in India.
The English precedence is slowly changing though, with more and more technology products being shipped in local languages so that they can reach populations that don't speak English (which is more in number than the population that can.)
These are great points, and the perspective is critical. It's worth noting I only speak English and by necessity only interact with people who also speak English. So frequently I have to wonder how that shapes my perspective and whether various users might have unmet needs. Whereas in your case, you've lived in some of these areas and speak Hindi so have a more realistic idea of what might be useful in India.
So while my experience with this has been different from Griffin's in
that no Tor user in India has asked me for a translation in their local language, I think the simple reason may be that English-speaking population doesn't feel the need and right now, they are the ones that dominate the online market. Not that this is an excuse for not having local translations, but I am stating the probable reasons for the lack of translations.
Those who've approached me about Urdu have been trainers from Pakistan, and I'd imagine that as you say they are hoping to reach more users who don't speak English. But I'm not actually sure how to really measure need based on these individual interactions.
best, Griffin
-- “Sometimes the questions are complicated and the answers are simple.” ― Dr. Seuss _______________________________________________ tor-dev mailing list tor-dev@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-dev
David Fifield wrote:
Griffin Boyce wrote:
Both populations also have a large number of speakers: ~300M for Hindi and ~66M for Urdu.
I was really surprised; Hindi is the third-most spoken language in the world, trailing only Mandarin and English. Of the top 10 languages in this Wikipedia list, Tor Browser is missing localizations only for Hindi, Bengali, and Malay. (Urdu is #11.)
Yes, and Firefox has localized versions for Bengali(bn-IN), Bahasa Indonesia, Malay, Hindi, and Urdu. So the strings to translate would be only for the Tor-specific interfaces.
I guess what I'm really asking is what's the process for supporting additional languages? Would adding additional languages add too much overhead to release cycles?
~Griffin
On Sun, Apr 19, 2015 at 02:26:22AM -0400, Griffin Boyce wrote:
I guess what I'm really asking is what's the process for supporting additional languages? Would adding additional languages add too much overhead to release cycles?
It's also partly a matter of the file size of additional packages. But see:
Support a multi-lingual TBB that can switch between localizations https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/12967
David Fifield
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David Fifield -
Griffin Boyce -
Noah Rahman -
Sukhbir Singh