[Tor www-team] [Back-end][CMS]

Fri Jan 10 20:45:13 UTC 2014

I'll drop talking about Drupal, you two have convinced me. I still wonder
if the project should support user generated content and I'm still a bit
foggy as to what the back end roles will be for maintaining the site.

On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 3:28 PM, Namanyay Goel <mail at namanyayg.com> wrote:

> Olssy, thanks for addressing my concerns here. I wasn't aware that we
> could mirror the files and make them available for download, however, I do
> think it would come with it's own share of problems.
>
> Another thing to see here is speed and the easiness of backing up data.
> With a static site generator, there are only a few folders that you need to
> save for backups, while Drupal needs a backup of database and plugin data,
> among other things. Static site generators are also fast, really fast, and
> even the simplest of servers which have caching set up well can handle
> large traffic to a static site.
>
> I advocate for a static-site generator, though not Jekyll (Since it's
> painfully slow).
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 1:54 AM, Olssy <olssy1 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Sorry to be such a pain about Drupal but I just want it to make sure it
>> is being ruled out for the right reasons, the database it uses does not
>> prevent it from generating static pages. Just like the Jekyll markdown
>> files don't need to be mirrored neither does Drupal or its database, just
>> the generated html files. I do like the Jekyll solution though just worried
>> that it's a bit limited for the project.
>>
>> Back to your question:
>> Do we need User roles?
>>
>> If the site will ever be supporting user generated content through then I
>> think this is a requirement but if UGC is to be offloaded elsewhere else
>> and it's really just the static pages then I think the file system
>> permissions should suffice.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 2:12 PM, Namanyay Goel <mail at namanyayg.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Static files rendering:
>>>
>>> If you change a single page, it will render that, and will render any
>>> related pages, such as home, tags, etc. Changes to the stylesheet make each
>>> page render again, which tremendously slows down development.
>>>
>>>
>>> Using Drupal @Olssy:
>>>
>>> It's already been established that we *need* something that doesn't need
>>> a database so it can be easily mirrored (on over 70 mirrors) and can be
>>> downloaded and stored by our users (in a pen drive, CD, etc). Also, I don't
>>> believe we need user roles?
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 12:31 AM, Rey Dhuny <rey at spcshp.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> > How often will the static files need to be rendered?
>>>>
>>>> Off the top of my head (not in front of a computer), When a page is
>>>> changed or added, the entire site is regenerated.
>>>>
>>>> I could be mistaken.
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my silly iPhone
>>>>
>>>> On 10 Jan 2014, at 18:58, "Clark Venable" <jclarkv at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> How often will the static files need to be rendered? The greater the
>>>> time interval between static file generation the less speed of engine
>>>> matters. Or an I thinking about this wrong?
>>>>
>>>> Clark Venable
>>>> --
>>>> Clark
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 1:55 PM, Rey Dhuny <rey at spcshp.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Namanyay Goel:
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you for those stats!
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe they should be put on the wiki where we can compare performance
>>>>> under the proposed generators section?
>>>>>
>>>>>  > Hmm, Middleman might be overkill, but still I suggest we look into
>>>>> other static site generators, especially that can handle larger sites.
>>>>>
>>>>>  I very much agree, much more so since seeing looking at those stats.
>>>>>
>>>>> Rey
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10 Jan 2014, at 18:49, Namanyay Goel <mail at namanyayg.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>  I couldn't find much - Except the multiple StackOverflow questions
>>>>> you find when searching 'Jekyll generation slow', and this Github issue:
>>>>> https://github.com/jekyll/jekyll/issues/1140, and my personal
>>>>> experience with using it (Use it on a blog with ~40 posts, generation time
>>>>> is from 8-12 seconds).
>>>>>
>>>>> Hmm, Middleman might be overkill, but still I suggest we look into
>>>>> other static site generators, especially that can handle larger sites.
>>>>>
>>>>> (Points of interest in the Github issue:
>>>>>
>>>>> * Testing with jekyll build:
>>>>>  150 files - 20sec
>>>>> 300 files - 40sec
>>>>> 600 files - 130sec
>>>>>
>>>>> * Testing jekyll build, 100 files, and using Jekyll-Bootstrap:
>>>>> #1
>>>>> real    0m18.725s
>>>>> user    0m18.256s
>>>>> sys 0m0.407s
>>>>>
>>>>> #2
>>>>> real    0m18.578s
>>>>> user    0m18.124s
>>>>> sys 0m0.423s
>>>>>
>>>>> #3
>>>>> real    0m18.467s
>>>>> user    0m17.986s
>>>>> sys 0m0.434s
>>>>>
>>>>> * jekyll new performance:
>>>>>
>>>>> posts
>>>>> 1 0.824s
>>>>> 100 2.644s
>>>>> 1000 25.071s
>>>>> 5000 186.715s
>>>>> 10000  536.904s)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 12:07 AM, Rey Dhuny <rey at spcshp.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>  > While Jekyll is indeed a choice, for larger sites, it's
>>>>>> generation time is simply too long.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Are there any benchmarks or examples to validate this statement?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would be very interested to see generation times comparing the
>>>>>> proposed static site generators, especially for larger sites.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I personally have never encountered such problems in my usage of
>>>>>> Jekyll though they haven't been large, content heavy applications like will
>>>>>> be the case for torproject.org.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > (Someone suggested Middleman? It also has internationalization!)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  I was somebody who suggested Middleman and indeed, it does have
>>>>>> internationalisation baked in, though a concern I personally have is that
>>>>>> it could potentially be _overkill_ for the application in this case.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rey
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10 Jan 2014, at 18:21, Namanyay Goel <mail at namanyayg.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  While Jekyll is indeed a choice, for larger sites, it's generation
>>>>>> time is simply too long. Development takes time on Jekyll, simply because
>>>>>> of it's generation time. If we can offset that problem in some way, that
>>>>>> would be great, otherwise I feel we should be looking at some other static
>>>>>> site generator (Someone suggested Middleman? It also has
>>>>>> internationalization!)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As for the debate about author's writing 'code', Markdown is easy to
>>>>>> learn and use, and outputs semantic data. We really don't need a rich text
>>>>>> editor of some sort, Markdown (Or similar languages) are good enough.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 11:45 PM, Gvido Glazers <
>>>>>> gvido.glazers at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Hello, Everyone!
>>>>>>> Missed the introduction thread, so I'll just start with that:
>>>>>>> I'm Gvido, and I'm currently based in Amsterdam.
>>>>>>> My official job title is front-end developer, but in reality I do
>>>>>>> full-stack development with ruby or python.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now, back on topic.
>>>>>>> I'm also going to agree with the general sentiment that Jekyll is
>>>>>>> the way to go. It's stable, simple, widely used, easy to extend, and
>>>>>>> powerful.
>>>>>>> Markdown is really easy to learn, I don't think content creators
>>>>>>> writing about Tor would have a problem grasping it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 6:52 PM, William Papper <william at papper.me>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  Definitely a +1 for Jekyll. There's no need to reinvent the
>>>>>>>> wheel. While a custom solution or plain HTML may seem appealing at first
>>>>>>>> (and would be great for a personal project), Jekyll lets us move much
>>>>>>>> quicker and keeps everything relatively standardized. It also makes it
>>>>>>>> easier for people to collaborate, since Jekyll is widely used.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 11:57 AM, Moritz Süß <moritz at moritzsuess.de
>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Markdown is _very_ simple.
>>>>>>>>> Please check out
>>>>>>>>> http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/basics and try out
>>>>>>>>> markdown at http://www.markdownviewer.com/.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Let’s try to use these as long as possible for getting people
>>>>>>>>> familiarized with Markdown. We do not want to duplicate existing
>>>>>>>>> documentation efforts, and keep up-front investment for tools as low as
>>>>>>>>> possible in this project.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I hope I am correct in my understanding that we agree on a static
>>>>>>>>> website generator now, and kind-off agree on Jekyll.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Best
>>>>>>>>>  Moritz
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Am 10.01.2014 um 17:35 schrieb Earl G <globallogins at gmail.com>:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ok So Jeklly
>>>>>>>>> a user guide for people that need to learn markdown to be able to
>>>>>>>>> contribute to the blog.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> and the front of the site user friendly for anybody that wants to
>>>>>>>>> get started.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> back of the site and deeper for the linux nerds and specialists
>>>>>>>>> that want to dig deeper.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> job done
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 10 January 2014 17:32, Sam E. Lawrence <selbrit at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 10:10 AM, Sean Rafferty <
>>>>>>>>>> seanmrafferty at me.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But there are a lot of content writers in the world that just
>>>>>>>>>>> don’t know it well enough.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Then they can learn. If someone wants to contribute to a solution
>>>>>>>>>> to a problem as complex as privacy and security, then learning markdown /
>>>>>>>>>> HTML should be a minor investment of their time. Basic HTML takes little
>>>>>>>>>> time to learn, and will instantly boost the self-respect of anyone who
>>>>>>>>>> wants to help Tor and other software projects. Setting a bar is worth it,
>>>>>>>>>> IMO.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Tor Website Team coordination mailing-list
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe or change other options, please visit:
>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/www-team
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Tor Website Team coordination mailing-list
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe or change other options, please visit:
>>>>>>>>> https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/www-team
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Tor Website Team coordination mailing-list
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe or change other options, please visit:
>>>>>>>>> https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/www-team
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ________________________________________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Tor Website Team coordination mailing-list
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe or change other options, please visit:
>>>>>>>> https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/www-team
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ________________________________________________________________________
>>>>>>> Tor Website Team coordination mailing-list
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe or change other options, please visit:
>>>>>>> https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/www-team
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>  Namanyay Goel <http://namanyayg.com/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> :: Freelance Web Designer and Developer.
>>>>>> :: UI Designer at MakeUseOf <http://makeuseof.com/>.
>>>>>> :: Author at Symmetrycode <http://symmetrycode.com/>.
>>>>>>  :: @namanyayg <http://twitter.com/namanyayg>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ________________________________________________________________________
>>>>>> Tor Website Team coordination mailing-list
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To unsubscribe or change other options, please visit:
>>>>>> https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/www-team
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ________________________________________________________________________
>>>>>> Tor Website Team coordination mailing-list
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To unsubscribe or change other options, please visit:
>>>>>> https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/www-team
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>  Namanyay Goel <http://namanyayg.com/>
>>>>>
>>>>> :: Freelance Web Designer and Developer.
>>>>> :: UI Designer at MakeUseOf <http://makeuseof.com/>.
>>>>> :: Author at Symmetrycode <http://symmetrycode.com/>.
>>>>>  :: @namanyayg <http://twitter.com/namanyayg>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________________________________________________
>>>>> Tor Website Team coordination mailing-list
>>>>>
>>>>> To unsubscribe or change other options, please visit:
>>>>> https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/www-team
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> ________________________________________________________________________
>>>> Tor Website Team coordination mailing-list
>>>>
>>>> To unsubscribe or change other options, please visit:
>>>> https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/www-team
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________________________________________________
>>>> Tor Website Team coordination mailing-list
>>>>
>>>> To unsubscribe or change other options, please visit:
>>>> https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/www-team
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Namanyay Goel <http://namanyayg.com/>
>>>
>>> :: Freelance Web Designer and Developer.
>>> :: UI Designer at MakeUseOf <http://makeuseof.com/>.
>>> :: Author at Symmetrycode <http://symmetrycode.com/>.
>>> :: @namanyayg <http://twitter.com/namanyayg>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________________________________________________
>>> Tor Website Team coordination mailing-list
>>>
>>> To unsubscribe or change other options, please visit:
>>> https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/www-team
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ________________________________________________________________________
>> Tor Website Team coordination mailing-list
>>
>> To unsubscribe or change other options, please visit:
>> https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/www-team
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Namanyay Goel <http://namanyayg.com/>
>
> :: Freelance Web Designer and Developer.
> :: UI Designer at MakeUseOf <http://makeuseof.com/>.
> :: Author at Symmetrycode <http://symmetrycode.com/>.
> :: @namanyayg <http://twitter.com/namanyayg>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Tor Website Team coordination mailing-list
>
> To unsubscribe or change other options, please visit:
> https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/www-team
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/www-team/attachments/20140110/92587806/attachment.html>