[tor-talk] tor project website change

Lee ler762 at gmail.com
Sat Apr 6 01:09:14 UTC 2019 

On 4/5/19, Kevin Simper <kevin.simper at gmail.com> wrote:
> You should submit a patch, that would be a great way to move the
> conversation forward 😄

If I thought they'd add some warnings, sure, but I suspect that adding
anything that would make the tor browser look less than perfectly safe
isn't going to happen.

For the download page:
line 132 - remove this bit
      <div class="pull-right">
          <a class="btn btn-outline-light pull-right" href="../download/">
            Download Tor Browser<span class="oi oi-arrow-bottom-png
ml-2 p-1"></span>
          </a>
      </div>
You're already on https://www.torproject.org/download/
Having a link to the page you're already on is confusing at best.

line 333 - remove this bit, over-promising & linking to the page
you're already on
  <div class="row">
    <div class="col-12 d-flex justify-content-right">
      <div class="container pt-5 justify-content-right">
        <div class="offset-lx-2 offset-sm-4 mt-5">
           <h2 class="text-white text-bold">Download Tor Browser</h2>
            <p class="text-white">Download Tor Browser to experience
real private browsing without tracking, surveillance, or
censorship.</p>

            <a class="btn text-primary bg-white btn-light pull-right
mt-2" href="../download/">
              Download Tor Browser<span class="oi
oi-arrow-bottom-png-purple ml-2 p-1" title="icon arrow-bottom"
aria-hidden="true"></span>
            </a>
        </div>
      </div>
    </div>


I don't remember where this quote came from, but it was from a
discussion on web page design:

  Iconography is counter intuitive to the literate.

Underneath the graphics that I thought were just graphics - eg:
        <a class="downloadLink"
href="https://www.torproject.org/dist/torbrowser/8.0.8/torbrowser-install-win64-8.0.8_en-US.exe">
          <i class="fab fa-windows-png text-light"></i>
        </a>

add the link text for the program & signature
      <a href="https://www.torproject.org/dist/torbrowser/8.0.8/torbrowser-install-win64-8.0.8_en-US.exe">torbrowser-install-win64-8.0.8_en-US.exe</a><br>
      <a href=https://www.torproject.org/dist/torbrowser/8.0.8/torbrowser-install-win64-8.0.8_en-US.exe.asc">sig</a>

And move the
  Verify Tor Browser signature
link to immediately after.

Lee



> -Kevin
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 1:34 PM Lee <ler762 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 4/5/19, Kevin Simper <kevin.simper at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > I think the website is good,
>>
>> If they'd fix the download link on
>> https://www.torproject.org/download/ it would be a lot better.
>>
>> > I felt before that it left out newcomers that
>> > didn't know what torbrowser was already, so much was going on that it
>> would
>> > confuse people that just have heard others mention tor browser and want
>> to
>> > check it out.
>>
>> It seems to me that newcomers are the ones that most need warnings
>> instead of a blanket
>>    Protect yourself against tracking, surveillance, and censorship.
>>
>> but I don't see anything there about tbb not defaulting to a safer config
>>   https://2019.www.torproject.org/docs/faq.html.en#TBBJavaScriptEnabled
>>
>> and is this still be an open problem?
>>
>> https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/4x3qnj/how-the-nsa-or-anyone-else-can-crack-tors-anonymity
>>
>> But tor needs 'covering traffic' and .. what?  They don't want to
>> scare people away?
>>
>> https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/07/dear-nsa-privacy-fundamental-right-not-reasonable-suspicion
>>
>> > I think there is still space for more nerdy pages and I think anyone is
>> > allowed to create such a page if they want +1
>> >
>> > The only thing I am missing is some call to actions for different parts
>> of
>> > the website when you have done scrolling to the bottom of the page 😄
>>
>> I'm missing a link for downloading tor.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Lee
>>
>> >
>> > -Kevin
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 4:17 PM Lee <ler762 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 4/3/19, blacklight447 at tutanota.com <blacklight447 at tutanota.com>
>> wrote:
>> >> > Pretty sure this guy is just trolling and baiting at this point
>> >>
>> >> It looks more like frustration to me
>> >> >> The last actual use case warning or disclaimer on torproject.org
>> >> >> was removed by or on October 10 2010.
>> >>
>> >> Starting at  https://www.torproject.org/
>> >>   Browse Privately.
>> >>   - with no caveats.
>> >>   BLOCK TRACKERS
>> >>   - except they aren't actually blocked, just isolated.  right?
>> >>   DEFEND AGAINST SURVEILLANCE
>> >>   - I suspect tor is a better defense than using a vpn but still...
>> >> with no warnings or caveats it seems a bit much.
>> >>   RESIST FINGERPRINTING
>> >>   - yay!  "Tor Browser aims to ..."  a reasonable claim.
>> >>
>> >> But wait!  There's more!!
>> >>
>> >> Click on the 'Download Tor Browser' link & go to
>> >> https://www.torproject.org/download/
>> >> Click on the 'Download Tor Browser' link on that page and get sent to
>> >> "../download/" but that's where I was, so wtf?  Maybe I need
>> >> javascript enabled??
>> >>
>> >> There's also a link for "Verify Tor Browser signature" but no link to
>> >> the signature file.
>> >>
>> >> At least the "Download in another language" link gets me to a page
>> >> where I can download tbb and the sig.  It doesn't show which version
>> >> will be downloaded, but it does have working links, so it's infinitely
>> >> better than the download page.
>> >>
>> >> Lee
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Apr 3, 2019, 10:47 AM by grarpamp at gmail.com:
>> >> >
>> >> >>> why adversaries should finance tor project and publicly it if they
>> >> >>> have
>> >> >>> a malicious intent?
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Why do adversaries do that to their opponents?
>> >> >> Because it's a simple and effective diversion operation.
>> >> >> Nor is it dependant upon whether any "malicious intent".
>> >> >> Adversaries often fund their opponents to keep them busy and happy
>> >> >> even if opponent only a few steps tangent behind the race to
>> >> >> actually
>> >> >> being able to kill the adversary. It can work actively...
>> >> >> "Here's a pile and stream of money to develop some useless
>> >> >> or thing we want in an RFP / contract / grant / employee",
>> >> >> or passively... "Hey, those guys seem to be going down useless
>> >> >> paths, ok here's a bunch of money to keep them happily digging
>> >> >> in those holes, LOL." Usually delivered by false fronts.
>> >> >> See also "regulatory capture" type of concept. Also how nice
>> >> >> salaries and simple weight of self reinforcing mass inertia and
>> >> >> groupthink over time can keep any one or group settled into the
>> >> >> same thing, less dynamism, up to even not abandoning and starting
>> >> >> out elsewhere due to simple risk aversion... "job food friends
>> >> lifestyle."
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Is an entity, product, or network subject to whatever
>> >> >> to some degree or other? Maybe, maybe not, others decide.
>> >> >> Yet without talking about and analysing harder questions
>> >> >> once in a while, especially as generations come and go,
>> >> >> people might have less sense therein.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> If a site looks sexy it must be good, right?
>> >> >> That's what at least marketers think, and it's perhaps good enough
>> >> >> for browsing mundane TV news sites. Yet there's no frontpage
>> >> >> splash disclaimer for others with more sensitive, vulnerable,
>> >> >> or different use cases.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Nor mention of Tor people hypocritically trying to censor ban
>> >> >> nodes out of the consensus for, ironically, nothing more than
>> >> >> excercising their right to free speech. Instead of say punting that
>> >> >> out to meta analysis projects that users can choose to subscribe
>> >> >> to as suits their own likes, support, and thinking therein.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> To be fair, no different than any other business (say ibm.com)
>> >> >> or opensource project... finding much suitability disclaimer
>> >> >> on anyone's pages, surely not without a good number of clicks,
>> >> >> it's of less interest or natural to cover some potentially
>> >> >> questionable areas, adversarial weaknesses, etc... it doesn't sell.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Anyhow...
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The last actual use case warning or disclaimer on torproject.org
>> >> >> was removed by or on October 10 2010. Some historical bisects..
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Site v1
>> >> >> first, domain 1998-01-29
>> >> >>
>> http://web.archive.org/web/19981212031609/http://www.onion-router.net
>> >> >> <
>> http://web.archive.org/web/19981212031609/http://www.onion-router.net/
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> same content actually to "circa" 2006
>> >> >>
>> http://web.archive.org/web/20061023145713/http://www.onion-router.net
>> >> >> <
>> http://web.archive.org/web/20061023145713/http://www.onion-router.net/
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> http://web.archive.org/web/20130120133213/http://www.onion-router.net
>> >> >> <
>> http://web.archive.org/web/20130120133213/http://www.onion-router.net/
>> >> >
>> >> >> except for the gov diff
>> >> >>
>> http://web.archive.org/web/20130420093515/http://www.onion-router.net
>> >> >> <
>> http://web.archive.org/web/20130420093515/http://www.onion-router.net/
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> curr
>> >> >>
>> http://web.archive.org/web/20190228035625/http://www.onion-router.net
>> >> >> <
>> http://web.archive.org/web/20190228035625/http://www.onion-router.net/
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Site v2
>> >> >> first, domain 2006-10-17
>> >> >> http://web.archive.org/web/20071011223019/http://www.torproject.org
>> >> >> <
>> http://web.archive.org/web/20071011223019/http://www.torproject.org/>
>> >> >> last
>> >> >> http://web.archive.org/web/20101003133226/http://www.torproject.org
>> >> >> <
>> http://web.archive.org/web/20101003133226/http://www.torproject.org/>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Site v3
>> >> >> first
>> >> >> http://web.archive.org/web/20101010191937/http://www.torproject.org
>> >> >> <
>> http://web.archive.org/web/20101010191937/http://www.torproject.org/>
>> >> >> last
>> >> >> http://web.archive.org/web/20190326100059/https://www.torproject.org
>> >> >> <
>> http://web.archive.org/web/20190326100059/https://www.torproject.org/>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Site v4
>> >> >> first
>> >> >> http://web.archive.org/web/20190327033924/https://www.torproject.org
>> >> >> <
>> http://web.archive.org/web/20190327033924/https://www.torproject.org/>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Misc...
>> >> >>
>> >>
>> http://web.archive.org/web/20041108031017/http://wiki.noreply.org/noreply/TheOnionRouter
>> >> >> <
>> >>
>> http://web.archive.org/web/20041108031017/http://wiki.noreply.org/noreply/TheOnionRouter
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >>
>> http://web.archive.org/web/20070104070427/http://wiki.noreply.org/noreply/TheOnionRouter
>> >> >> <
>> >>
>> http://web.archive.org/web/20070104070427/http://wiki.noreply.org/noreply/TheOnionRouter
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >>
>> http://web.archive.org/web/20100416102850/http://wiki.noreply.org/noreply/TheOnionRouter
>> >> >> <
>> >>
>> http://web.archive.org/web/20100416102850/http://wiki.noreply.org/noreply/TheOnionRouter
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >>
>> http://web.archive.org/web/20110728115309/https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki
>> >> >> <
>> >>
>> http://web.archive.org/web/20110728115309/https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> what you said
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> It's really all junk lately, just delete it.
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> tor-talk mailing list - > tor-talk at lists.torproject.org
>> >> >> <mailto:tor-talk at lists.torproject.org>
>> >> >> To unsubscribe or change other settings go to
>> >> >> https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
>> >> >> <https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > --
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