[tor-talk] Tor Exit Operator convicted in Austrian lower court

Joe Btfsplk joebtfsplk at gmx.com
Sun Jul 6 15:31:42 UTC 2014

To "no.thing_to-hide" -
the link you provided is inaccessible for me.
It gives a message:  "This page was not retrieved from its original 
location over a secure connection."
Not sure if there's a way around it, or maybe provide the original page 
& let people translate it themselves?
On 7/4/2014 4:56 PM, no.thing_to-hide at cryptopathie.eu wrote:
> Hash: SHA1
> I fully agree with Joe!
> Running an exit can get you in serious legal trouble, because Tor /and
> all other anonymity services/ will always be misused for illegal
> activities. Every interested operator must make his personal moral
> trade-off and come to a decision.
> Sartre described such a discussion in a more extreme scenario in "Les
> mains sales" (= Dirty hands)
> Anyway, I decided not to run an exit but only an internal relay. And
> to join German CCC and Zwiebelfreunde (Hello to the colleagues by the
> way!). We operate really big relays, secured by professional admins.
> Much better than I could setup at home as hobbyist w/o IT-education.
> So you are an association and the legal risk and potential lawyer
> costs are distributed.
> Even the simple use of Tor is not w/o risk for everyday use:
> https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&sl=de&tl=en&u=http://www.heise.de/ct/heft/2013-20--2248651.html%3Fview%3Dprint
> I think one should have at least some basic knowledge about what the
> Internet, SSL certificates, browsers, scripting and plugins are and
> how they work.
> Best regards
> Anton
> - -- 
> no.thing_to-hide at cryptopathie dot eu
> 0x30C3CDF0, RSA 2048, 24 Mar 2014
> 0FF8 A811 8857 1B7E 195B 649E CC26 E1A5 30C3 CDF0
> Bitmessage (no metadata): BM-2cXixKZaqzJmTfz6ojiyLzmKg2JbzDnApC
> On 04/07/14 22:56, Joe Btfsplk wrote:
>> On 7/3/2014 2:23 PM, C B wrote:
>>> "I agree that collecting stories about "why/how I use Tor" is
>>> useful, but I disagree that any special education or warning
>>> should be needed before setting up an exit node. Setting up an
>>> exit node is simply providing another IP that can be used for
>>> traffic and nothing else."
>> Holy... "they may not have a clue what danger lies ahead," Batman.
>> We're going to have to agree to disagree, that at least some basic
>> info on potential dangers be supplied, if only links. We've all
>> seen several people conversing on tor-talk now, that were run
>> through the ringer, for running Tor relays.
>> I don't think any of them thought they'd be fighting for their
>> freedom; spending a huge part of savings to defend themselves or
>> going through extended, true mental anguish of wondering if they'd
>> lose their freedom & family.
>> Maybe Tor Project itself isn't the one that should be doing the
>> educating in this case - dunno. Though I don't like the thought of
>> people going through hell on Earth, because they didn't understand
>> the dangers, I also understand it's not in Tor Project's best
>> interest to scare off relay operators.
>> One issue is, every Tor user is encouraged to run a relay.  Kind of
>> like the US Army commercials promoting adventure & visiting foreign
>> lands, instead of bullets & grenades coming at you.
>> Moritz, I'm not sure if the 1st FAQ at the link
>> https://www.torproject.org/eff/tor-legal-faq.html.en portrays an
>> accurate picture of potential dangers:
>>> "Has anyone ever been sued or prosecuted for running Tor?"
>> *>"No*, we aren't aware of anyone being sued or prosecuted in the
>> United States just for running a Tor relay. Further, we believe
>> that running a Tor relay --- including an exit relay that allows
>> people to anonymously send and >receive traffic --- is legal under
>> U.S. law."
>> That may need a bit of revision. :D  Maybe no one has been
>> prosecuted in the US (I don't know), but people in other countries
>> sure have. And being investigated or going through court hearings &
>> trials - maybe for months or yrs, can destroy a person. It can be
>> devastating, even if you're never formally charged.
>> Many people who've never gone through something like that can't
>> fully understand the incredible stress of being investigated &
>> threatened.
>> The concept of, "No one's been *prosecuted* in the US, therefore
>> running Tor relays has no potentially serious legal ramifications,"
>> is glossing over the dangers.
>> Running a relay may not be *the* most dangerous activity, but it
>> sure carries significant risk.  Many that get tor-talk regularly
>> have read that. But some potential relay operators might not read
>> tor-talk every day for months, to read about someone that got in
>> serious legal trouble, before they decide to / not to run a relay.
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