Re: [tor-relays] ISP, Abuses , Intrusion Prevention etc.
On 9 Oct 2016 11:36, "pa011" <pa011@web.de> wrote:
- what forces drive ISP's to behave like they do with abuses? - maybe Exit volunteers and here especially the big ones could
ask some questions to their ISP to get more light on this I set up my own ISP (AS28715) so I could run Tor exits etc without any trouble.
I do refer to my old questions -still unanswered:
-is it just the more work for rather poor money
handling(forwarding)
those abuses ?
Yes. Every abuse ticket is a person answering that abuse ticket instead of helping a customer who is potentially paying for support. It's also that some of the abuse emails can be quite threatening (e.g. blacklisting the entire /24 or reporting the "crime" to local Police etc) some of the smaller ISPs can get intimidated by those threats.
- to whom else do ISP's have to report what they are
doing with received
abuses?
In the UK; No one.
- must ISP's answer to the origin of the abuse?
No. But is polite to do so.
- who is getting a copy of all that conversation(if at
all)? Depends on the ISPs policies / any applicable laws. (In the UK and at least as far as my ISP is concerned; no-one)
- can an ISP loose its license (with too many or badly
handled abuses)? AFAIK; No. In the UK I guess one could appeal to Court if an ISP wasn't preventing its network from being used to your detriment but I'm not sure how far you'd get.
- are there any regulatory burdens for them - if so which
ones? Yes. Lots depending on the country.
- are ISP's treated different in different parts of the
world? Very much so.
I set up my own ISP (AS28715) so I could run Tor exits etc without any trouble.
Could you share a bit more about what is involved in doing that?
I'd also be very interested in learning more about setting up an ISP for Tor. Is it a non-profit? How many man hours did it take (roughly) to get the structure in place? How much money (roughly) did it take? How much legal consultation did it require to setup?
On 10/10/2016 11:43 AM, Green Dream wrote:
I set up my own ISP (AS28715) so I could run Tor exits etc without any trouble.
Could you share a bit more about what is involved in doing that?
I'd also be very interested in learning more about setting up an ISP for Tor. Is it a non-profit? How many man hours did it take (roughly) to get the structure in place? How much money (roughly) did it take? How much legal consultation did it require to setup?
I'm intrigued by this myself. Although Brass Horn Communications is a British entity, and the best practice is for exit nodes to be run under the aegis of *some* sort of corporate set-up (non-profit, shell company, libraries, university IT departments, and what-have-you), I hadn't known that a /pro forma/ ISP was even a thing, if indeed that's what we're talking about here.
On 10/11/2016 12:51 AM, Kenneth Freeman wrote:
I set up my own ISP (AS28715) so I could run Tor exits etc without any trouble. Could you share a bit more about what is involved in doing that? I'd also be very interested in learning more about setting up an ISP for Tor. Is it a non-profit? How many man hours did it take (roughly) to get the structure in place? How much money (roughly) did it take? How much legal consultation did it require to setup? I'm intrigued by this myself.
There are different phases or activities one might consider being part of "creating an ISP". Legally, you "create an ISP" by operating a Tor exit relay. As always, for exit relays, I strongly urge people to get listed in the WHOIS of the respective IP range, especially as abuse contact. As soon as you're listed there, a lot more people will regard you as "the ISP". In theory it does not matter what type of legal entity is listed there; I know of hosting providers run by single individuals without another legal entity "around them", and it works just fine. Still, in many cases, if they see the name of an individual, they will more likely assume that you might be the culprit, than if it just lists an incorporated entity. Then, the next step is to get your own Autonomous System Number. Quite a number of complaints don't go to the abuse contact listed in the IP range, but directly to the "upstream" Autonomous System operator. You "catch" these types of complaints by registering your own, and your own IP space. Then, the hunt for "exit friendly hosters" turns into a hunt for ISPs that will announce your IP space and your ASN. In most jurisdictions, you do not register "common carrier-type" activities with the government; you have to register Internet _access_ providers in certain jurisdictions (eg. Germany), but you do not _want_ to be an _access_ provider with your exit relays. To get an Autonomous System Number and IP space, the place to go to depends on _your_ jurisdiction: ARIN (US/CAN), RIPE (EU), APNIC (Asia), LANIC (Latin America), AFRINIC (Africa); IP ranges and ASNs can then be announced by any hosting provider. For examples, see https://apps.db.ripe.net/search/query.html?searchtext=ZWIEBELFREUNDE -- Moritz Bartl https://www.torservers.net/
tldr: epic quest chain, this ISP item must be orange. 2016-10-11 10:53 GMT+02:00 Moritz Bartl <moritz@torservers.net>:
On 10/11/2016 12:51 AM, Kenneth Freeman wrote:
I set up my own ISP (AS28715) so I could run Tor exits etc without any trouble. Could you share a bit more about what is involved in doing that? I'd also be very interested in learning more about setting up an ISP for Tor. Is it a non-profit? How many man hours did it take (roughly) to get the structure in place? How much money (roughly) did it take? How much legal consultation did it require to setup? I'm intrigued by this myself.
There are different phases or activities one might consider being part of "creating an ISP".
Legally, you "create an ISP" by operating a Tor exit relay.
As always, for exit relays, I strongly urge people to get listed in the WHOIS of the respective IP range, especially as abuse contact. As soon as you're listed there, a lot more people will regard you as "the ISP".
In theory it does not matter what type of legal entity is listed there; I know of hosting providers run by single individuals without another legal entity "around them", and it works just fine. Still, in many cases, if they see the name of an individual, they will more likely assume that you might be the culprit, than if it just lists an incorporated entity.
Then, the next step is to get your own Autonomous System Number. Quite a number of complaints don't go to the abuse contact listed in the IP range, but directly to the "upstream" Autonomous System operator. You "catch" these types of complaints by registering your own, and your own IP space. Then, the hunt for "exit friendly hosters" turns into a hunt for ISPs that will announce your IP space and your ASN.
In most jurisdictions, you do not register "common carrier-type" activities with the government; you have to register Internet _access_ providers in certain jurisdictions (eg. Germany), but you do not _want_ to be an _access_ provider with your exit relays.
To get an Autonomous System Number and IP space, the place to go to depends on _your_ jurisdiction: ARIN (US/CAN), RIPE (EU), APNIC (Asia), LANIC (Latin America), AFRINIC (Africa); IP ranges and ASNs can then be announced by any hosting provider.
For examples, see https://apps.db.ripe.net/search/query.html?searchtext=ZWIEBELFREUNDE
-- Moritz Bartl https://www.torservers.net/ _______________________________________________ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
On 10/11/2016 1:53 AM, Moritz Bartl wrote:
On 10/11/2016 12:51 AM, Kenneth Freeman wrote:
I set up my own ISP (AS28715) so I could run Tor exits etc without any trouble. Could you share a bit more about what is involved in doing that? I'd also be very interested in learning more about setting up an ISP for Tor. Is it a non-profit? How many man hours did it take (roughly) to get the structure in place? How much money (roughly) did it take? How much legal consultation did it require to setup? I'm intrigued by this myself.
There are different phases or activities one might consider being part of "creating an ISP".
Legally, you "create an ISP" by operating a Tor exit relay.
As always, for exit relays, I strongly urge people to get listed in the WHOIS of the respective IP range, especially as abuse contact. As soon as you're listed there, a lot more people will regard you as "the ISP".
In theory it does not matter what type of legal entity is listed there; I know of hosting providers run by single individuals without another legal entity "around them", and it works just fine. Still, in many cases, if they see the name of an individual, they will more likely assume that you might be the culprit, than if it just lists an incorporated entity.
Then, the next step is to get your own Autonomous System Number. Quite a number of complaints don't go to the abuse contact listed in the IP range, but directly to the "upstream" Autonomous System operator. You "catch" these types of complaints by registering your own, and your own IP space. Then, the hunt for "exit friendly hosters" turns into a hunt for ISPs that will announce your IP space and your ASN.
In most jurisdictions, you do not register "common carrier-type" activities with the government; you have to register Internet _access_ providers in certain jurisdictions (eg. Germany), but you do not _want_ to be an _access_ provider with your exit relays.
To get an Autonomous System Number and IP space, the place to go to depends on _your_ jurisdiction: ARIN (US/CAN), RIPE (EU), APNIC (Asia), LANIC (Latin America), AFRINIC (Africa); IP ranges and ASNs can then be announced by any hosting provider.
For examples, see https://apps.db.ripe.net/search/query.html?searchtext=ZWIEBELFREUNDE
Thanks for those insights, very useful and interesting.
participants (7)
-
Gareth Llewellyn -
Green Dream -
Kenneth Freeman -
Kevin Steen -
Kurt Besig -
Markus Koch -
Moritz Bartl