Search warrant and house search because of an exit in DE
Hi, earlier today (this morning) German police officials (I live in Germany) came to my flat and searched my rooms. The official accuse was because of me being suspected to fraud (about 400€ of eBooks were purchased and not payed via my exit relay on 2015-11-02 (data is available that my relay was up at the time on exonerator and collector)). USB sticks and my notebook were taken as evidence. I was being asked (I don't have to do that) to unlock my notebook in front of officials and do a file search that the files are not present and to tell them (and bring evidence) that the corresponding IP address was a Tor relay at the time at the phone later today. Of course I do not have those eBooks on my notebook and the data showing that my relay was up is available. What should I do now? Cheers!
Hi spriver, Sorry to hear that. We're already in contact, but just for the record: I think there's the fast option here, you unlock it and let them search it, or, you don't and it will take longer to get it back. A letter by a lawyer can help speed it up a little, we can arrange that. Let's discuss this more on the phone or in private mail. We also have some police contacts and we could help excert some pressure. -- Moritz Bartl https://www.torservers.net/
I would have the courage to run a Tor Exit from home; home internet in London too poor to do that anyway, and do not have two IPs here. The likes of BBC ban you if your IP is listed as an exit node. My VPS hosting company sent me various abuse notices once every two months, which I thought as quite a low rate for 10+Gb a day, but was still an embarrassment. Once I set my outgoing connection via a UK and very fast and supposedly "anonymous" proxy server service, I have not heard a squeak from anyone. These proxy services are very cheap, no limits, and offer another level of difficulty for enquiring authorities. There must be a disadvantage is running an exit node this way, but not sure what it is. Gerry
On 30 Apr 2016, at 19:34, Dr Gerard Bulger <gerard@bulger.co.uk> wrote:
I would have the courage to run a Tor Exit from home; home internet in London too poor to do that anyway, and do not have two IPs here. The likes of BBC ban you if your IP is listed as an exit node.
My VPS hosting company sent me various abuse notices once every two months, which I thought as quite a low rate for 10+Gb a day, but was still an embarrassment.
Once I set my outgoing connection via a UK and very fast and supposedly "anonymous" proxy server service, I have not heard a squeak from anyone. These proxy services are very cheap, no limits, and offer another level of difficulty for enquiring authorities.
There must be a disadvantage is running an exit node this way, but not sure what it is.
Additional latency, and giving the proxy service access to all your Exit's traffic.
Gerry
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Tim Wilson-Brown (teor) teor2345 at gmail dot com PGP 968F094B ricochet:ekmygaiu4rzgsk6n
Typo. I would NOT have the courage to run tor from home.... I did worry about added latency. Ping tells me only 1-2ms added...the proxy must be close by. And speed still 70Mbs each way. I am afraid not offering TOR all that bandwidth as need my server for my day job. -----Original Message----- From: tor-relays [mailto:tor-relays-bounces@lists.torproject.org] On Behalf Of Tim Wilson-Brown - teor Sent: 30 April 2016 12:17 To: tor-relays@lists.torproject.org Subject: Re: [tor-relays] Search warrant and house search because of an exit in DE
On 30 Apr 2016, at 19:34, Dr Gerard Bulger <gerard@bulger.co.uk> wrote:
I would have the courage to run a Tor Exit from home; home internet in London too poor to do that anyway, and do not have two IPs here. The likes of BBC ban you if your IP is listed as an exit node.
My VPS hosting company sent me various abuse notices once every two months, which I thought as quite a low rate for 10+Gb a day, but was still an embarrassment.
Once I set my outgoing connection via a UK and very fast and supposedly "anonymous" proxy server service, I have not heard a squeak from anyone. These proxy services are very cheap, no limits, and offer another level of difficulty for enquiring authorities.
There must be a disadvantage is running an exit node this way, but not sure what it is.
Additional latency, and giving the proxy service access to all your Exit's traffic.
Gerry
_______________________________________________ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
Tim Wilson-Brown (teor) teor2345 at gmail dot com PGP 968F094B ricochet:ekmygaiu4rzgsk6n
On 4/30/16, Dr Gerard Bulger <gerard@bulger.co.uk> wrote:
Once I set my outgoing connection via a UK and very fast and supposedly "anonymous" proxy server service, I have not heard a squeak from anyone. These proxy services are very cheap, no limits, and offer another level of difficulty for enquiring authorities.
Is what you call a "proxy service" actually a proxy service, or is it a VPN service? Your exit accepts more than just http[s], so I doubt it's the former.
There must be a disadvantage is running an exit node this way, but not sure what it is.
It is not "exonerated". At least not without you using some form of independant notary service.
Correct my exit normally goes via VPN running on the second IP, but this week I have changed server to a new Linux VPS machine, I have not yet got VPN to work without cutting off the branch I am sitting on. Working at it, along with problems making the second IP stick on reboot (Plesk on the VPS is running a script deleting it, my provider is sorting). So as a temporary measure it is https proxy. TOR Linux could not read my old Windows TOR keys, so it is a new setup. Is this a known error? Gerry -----Original Message----- From: tor-relays [mailto:tor-relays-bounces@lists.torproject.org] On Behalf Of grarpamp Sent: 30 April 2016 18:47 To: tor-relays@lists.torproject.org Subject: Re: [tor-relays] Search warrant and house search because of an exit in DE On 4/30/16, Dr Gerard Bulger <gerard@bulger.co.uk> wrote:
Once I set my outgoing connection via a UK and very fast and supposedly "anonymous" proxy server service, I have not heard a squeak from anyone. These proxy services are very cheap, no limits, and offer another level of difficulty for enquiring authorities.
Is what you call a "proxy service" actually a proxy service, or is it a VPN service? Your exit accepts more than just http[s], so I doubt it's the former.
There must be a disadvantage is running an exit node this way, but not sure what it is.
It is not "exonerated". At least not without you using some form of independant notary service. _______________________________________________ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
On April 29, 2016 at 10:00 PM Moritz Bartl <moritz@torservers.net> wrote:
Hi spriver,
Sorry to hear that. We're already in contact, but just for the record: I think there's the fast option here, you unlock it and let them search it, or,
Kind of surprised that you are suggesting to give a way the encryption passphrase.
On 04/30/2016 08:15 PM, dan wrote:
Sorry to hear that. We're already in contact, but just for the record: I think there's the fast option here, you unlock it and let them search it, or, Kind of surprised that you are suggesting to give a way the encryption passphrase.
No, I did not. I merely outlined the options. Do not confuse listing options with suggestions, and do not confuse suggestions with what people would do personally themselves. Also, there's a clear difference between unlocking it and demonstrating that the files are not on that computer without letting them touch it, unlocking it and let them search it while you're present, unlocking it and let them take a copy of all the data, or giving out the passphrase. Those are all distinct things. Maybe it is simply too crazy for many jurisdictions to believe, but police in Germany in most cases actually treats you well and is not your enemy. There's no point in turning every occasion into a combat just for the sake of it. I've spoken to spriver, and it looks like they will be satisfied if spriver unlocks the laptop and shows them that the files cannot be found in a filename search conducted by himself. If spriver is comfortable doing that, and the objective here is to get the laptop back quickly, it is not for me to decide and condemn that choice. Actually, I think it is fairly reasonable. But, yes, as with any person that has a computer, I recommend up-to-date offsite backups. Then, you might lean towards the other reasonable option, which is to simply state the facts and demand the hardware back. There's so many things that can happen with your machines, especially when it's a laptop, there is no reason not to have good backups. -- Moritz Bartl https://www.torservers.net/
Moritz; always the voice of reason. MATVOR. -V On Sunday, 1 May 2016, Moritz Bartl <moritz@torservers.net> wrote:
On 04/30/2016 08:15 PM, dan wrote:
Sorry to hear that. We're already in contact, but just for the
record: I
think there's the fast option here, you unlock it and let them search it, or, Kind of surprised that you are suggesting to give a way the encryption passphrase.
No, I did not. I merely outlined the options. Do not confuse listing options with suggestions, and do not confuse suggestions with what people would do personally themselves.
Also, there's a clear difference between unlocking it and demonstrating that the files are not on that computer without letting them touch it, unlocking it and let them search it while you're present, unlocking it and let them take a copy of all the data, or giving out the passphrase. Those are all distinct things.
Maybe it is simply too crazy for many jurisdictions to believe, but police in Germany in most cases actually treats you well and is not your enemy. There's no point in turning every occasion into a combat just for the sake of it. I've spoken to spriver, and it looks like they will be satisfied if spriver unlocks the laptop and shows them that the files cannot be found in a filename search conducted by himself. If spriver is comfortable doing that, and the objective here is to get the laptop back quickly, it is not for me to decide and condemn that choice. Actually, I think it is fairly reasonable.
But, yes, as with any person that has a computer, I recommend up-to-date offsite backups. Then, you might lean towards the other reasonable option, which is to simply state the facts and demand the hardware back. There's so many things that can happen with your machines, especially when it's a laptop, there is no reason not to have good backups.
-- Moritz Bartl https://www.torservers.net/ _______________________________________________ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org <javascript:;> https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
On 04/30/2016 05:20 PM, Moritz Bartl wrote:
On 04/30/2016 08:15 PM, dan wrote:
Sorry to hear that. We're already in contact, but just for the record: I think there's the fast option here, you unlock it and let them search it, or, Kind of surprised that you are suggesting to give a way the encryption passphrase.
<SNIP>
Maybe it is simply too crazy for many jurisdictions to believe, but police in Germany in most cases actually treats you well and is not your enemy. There's no point in turning every occasion into a combat just for the sake of it.
Maybe it seems that way. But how can one be sure of that?
I've spoken to spriver, and it looks like they will be satisfied if spriver unlocks the laptop and shows them that the files cannot be found in a filename search conducted by himself. If spriver is comfortable doing that, and the objective here is to get the laptop back quickly, it is not for me to decide and condemn that choice. Actually, I think it is fairly reasonable.
If there are backups, or no important data on the laptop, I don't see much point in getting the laptop back. It can't be trusted.
But, yes, as with any person that has a computer, I recommend up-to-date offsite backups. Then, you might lean towards the other reasonable option, which is to simply state the facts and demand the hardware back. There's so many things that can happen with your machines, especially when it's a laptop, there is no reason not to have good backups.
That's always good advice. But again, hardware returned by police is good at best for selling on Ebay, CL, etc. Or target practice ;)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 05/01/2016 01:20 AM, Moritz Bartl wrote:
Maybe it is simply too crazy for many jurisdictions to believe, but police in Germany in most cases actually treats you well and is not your enemy. There's no point in turning every occasion into a combat just for the sake of it. +1 We do lament here in Germany at a very high level.
- -- Toralf PGP: C4EACDDE 0076E94E, OTR: 420E74C8 30246EE7 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iF4EAREIAAYFAlclzdQACgkQxOrN3gB26U6VOwD+J6ntvmUN7nP3MkzB7Rj6bZYU Qy6OdgKZIW+EUfLj1FwA/juK94IjlLqV1z2koseMcpgNB2ea4bvMG5ySQgXWeC5r =Dgws -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On 2016-05-01 11:35, Toralf Förster wrote:
On 05/01/2016 01:20 AM, Moritz Bartl wrote:
Maybe it is simply too crazy for many jurisdictions to believe, but police in Germany in most cases actually treats you well and is not your enemy. There's no point in turning every occasion into a combat just for the sake of it. +1 We do lament here in Germany at a very high level.
That may be true. But raiding a private home over 400 Euros worth of ebooks, when the exit node isn't even being hosted there, sounds disproportionate. Which german state was this, if you don't mind telling? Best regards, Alexander -- PGP Key: https://dietrich.cx/pgp | 0x52FA4EE1722D54EB
Alexander Dietrich <alexander@dietrich.cx> writes:
On 2016-05-01 11:35, Toralf Förster wrote:
On 05/01/2016 01:20 AM, Moritz Bartl wrote:
Maybe it is simply too crazy for many jurisdictions to believe, but police in Germany in most cases actually treats you well and is not your enemy.
I still have to encounter this police which "treats you well" in Germany. If you found the 3 out of 3000 exceptions, that doesn't really count. I've seen enough police violence to be able to say that it is a global thing and german police isn't better or worse than the rest of the world. Just my 2ct, I don't want to derail this discussion.
There's no point in turning every occasion into a combat just for the sake of it. +1 We do lament here in Germany at a very high level.
That may be true. But raiding a private home over 400 Euros worth of ebooks, when the exit node isn't even being hosted there, sounds disproportionate.
Which german state was this, if you don't mind telling?
Bavaria's cops have a history of being extra unpleasant, but this could happen in any state I guess, depending on the cops.
Best regards, Alexander -- ♥Ⓐ ng0
Hi spriver and other tor exit operators, also be aware that your actions might create precedence for other relay operators. I.e. if everyone would decrypt their disks when asked without legal obligations that may have a negative effect (more pressure) on people that are not willing to do that.
On April 29, 2016 at 10:00 PM Moritz Bartl <moritz@torservers.net> wrote:
Hi spriver,
Sorry to hear that. We're already in contact, but just for the record: I think there's the fast option here, you unlock it and let them search it, or, you don't and it will take longer to get it back. A letter by a lawyer can help speed it up a little, we can arrange that. Let's discuss this more on the phone or in private mail. We also have some police contacts and we could help excert some pressure.
-- Moritz Bartl https://www.torservers.net/
_______________________________________________ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
On 05/04/2016 05:16 PM, dan wrote:
also be aware that your actions might create precedence for other relay operators.
I.e. if everyone would decrypt their disks when asked without legal obligations that may have a negative effect (more pressure) on people that are not willing to do that.
No, it won't. -- Moritz Bartl https://www.torservers.net/
On May 4, 2016 at 8:35 PM Moritz Bartl <moritz@torservers.net> wrote:
On 05/04/2016 05:16 PM, dan wrote:
also be aware that your actions might create precedence [correction: precendent] for other relay operators.
I.e. if everyone would decrypt their disks when asked without legal obligations that may have a negative effect (more pressure) on people that are not willing to do that.
No, it won't.
Not in a legal way but probably in a more "implicit" way. What I mean: If LEA gets used to something then they might not like it if things do no longer work as they used to.
Hi, it would be interesting to know whether you run that relay from your home broadband connection or some hosting server
On 04/30/2016 08:10 PM, dan wrote:
it would be interesting to know whether you run that relay from your home broadband connection or some hosting server
The exit was/is located in a data center in this case. But, it did not have customized WHOIS records, which is something that we recommend and it might have helped here, too. [ https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/doc/TorExitGuidelines ] -- Moritz Bartl https://www.torservers.net/
FUCK! Encrypt all the things ... the issue is, you dont get always a custom Whois ... 2016-05-01 1:23 GMT+02:00 Moritz Bartl <moritz@torservers.net>:
On 04/30/2016 08:10 PM, dan wrote:
it would be interesting to know whether you run that relay from your home broadband connection or some hosting server
The exit was/is located in a data center in this case. But, it did not have customized WHOIS records, which is something that we recommend and it might have helped here, too. [ https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/doc/TorExitGuidelines ]
-- Moritz Bartl https://www.torservers.net/ _______________________________________________ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
participants (12)
-
Alexander Dietrich -
dan -
Dr Gerard Bulger -
grarpamp -
Markus Koch -
Mirimir -
Moritz Bartl -
ng0 -
spriver -
Tim Wilson-Brown - teor -
Toralf Förster -
Virgil Griffith