Greypony received its first Court Order yesterday. Unfortunately, we have no records to provide since it was a Tor Exit, and we don’t even have records of who owned that relay at that IP address because we don’t keep records of the info. Oops.
It’s a pretty broad Court Order, and kind of funny. Oh well.
Conrad
On 9 Sep 2018, at 09:52, Conrad Rockenhaus conrad@rockenhaus.com wrote:
Greypony received its first Court Order yesterday. Unfortunately, we have no records to provide since it was a Tor Exit, and we don’t even have records of who owned that relay at that IP address because we don’t keep records of the info. Oops.
It’s a pretty broad Court Order, and kind of funny. Oh well.
If you need to prove that it was a Tor Exit on the relevant dates, use: https://metrics.torproject.org/exonerator.html
T
On Sep 8, 2018, at 7:35 PM, teor teor@riseup.net wrote:
On 9 Sep 2018, at 09:52, Conrad Rockenhaus conrad@rockenhaus.com wrote:
Greypony received its first Court Order yesterday. Unfortunately, we have no records to provide since it was a Tor Exit, and we don’t even have records of who owned that relay at that IP address because we don’t keep records of the info. Oops.
It’s a pretty broad Court Order, and kind of funny. Oh well.
If you need to prove that it was a Tor Exit on the relevant dates, use: https://metrics.torproject.org/exonerator.html
Oh, Colin is helping with a letter stating it was an exit at the time, and Franklin is looking into the other overly broad stuff they’re requesting that we don’t keep logs of…like which IP is assigned to which customer. They want it in a nice little affidavit.
Conrad
Conrad Rockenhaus wrote:
Greypony received its first Court Order yesterday. Unfortunately, we have no records to provide since it was a Tor Exit, and we don’t even have records of who owned that relay at that IP address because we don’t keep records of the info. Oops.
It’s a pretty broad Court Order, and kind of funny. Oh well.
Conrad
I can see this way too often in the mail list and it looks like some pour attempts of advertising of a small hosting/server/vps company start-up. I sincerely doubt any court order was received on such short notice, especially because these procedures take significant time from the date an action happen to the date subpoena/court order is physically received. Subject of this email thread chosen to attract attention, yet with 0 proof.
Secondly, the said company could not have received a court order, or even an abuse email, it is OVH who could have received them, and if it really was a court order they would not pass it further downstream, they would just tell them who the user of the IP address was at the given time.
HIGHLIGHT: I appreciate and respect and am thankful to people doing any efforts at all to run exit nodes running, including setting up small re-seller accounts with big providers and do it. We do not have to advertise these facts to the mail list over and over again.
After all this company does not even own any IP address space at all, it is an OVH re-seller with a different html website, and all those exits can be shut down the minute OVH decides they received too many abuse complaints, and that is it. They can state as long as they want that they will not shut them down, just one day some person in management changes and decides they are not worth it, so bye-bye.
Quite some people here are running exits under their own AS numbers and own IP address space with different upstream providers that provide real diversity yet none of them advertise it so heavily.
ANOTHER HIGHLIGHT SO MY WORDS DO NOT GET TWISTED: I am not saying these relays are useless, they are just not such a big deal to keep reading about them over and over again.
Thanks for not understanding it wrong.
On Sep 9, 2018, at 08:25, s7r s7r@sky-ip.org wrote:
I sincerely doubt any court order was received on such short notice
You lost me here. I’ve seen the order.
You think a cop can’t get a court order on short notice? Let me tell you about cops and courts then.
S7R,
I emailed you privately with evidence hoping you would retract your statement. Unfortunately, you’ve decided to not reply, so I’ll gladly post a redacted copy of the court order to my blog: https://www.rockenhaus.com/2018/09/hey-now-court-order.html as well as respond to some of your finer points.
On Sep 9, 2018, at 8:25 AM, s7r s7r@sky-ip.org wrote:
I can see this way too often in the mail list and it looks like some pour attempts of advertising of a small hosting/server/vps company start-up. I sincerely doubt any court order was received on such short notice, especially because these procedures take significant time from the date an action happen to the date subpoena/court order is physically received. Subject of this email thread chosen to attract attention, yet with 0 proof.
My, oh my, you really need some education about Court Orders if you think they really need to “take some time” to get one. All a Police Officer has to do is convince a judge that they believe Party X holds evidence related to the crime, and they need Party X to release the evidence to bolster their case to probable cause for arrest or to determine who the suspect is. If a judge agrees, the court order is signed. It’s up to you to fight the court order.
I would like to see how I was advertising. I didn’t mention my company once, I sent it from my personal account, and I sent the email just to inform that another relay operator received a court order, which is an atypical topic brought up here.
Secondly, the said company could not have received a court order, or even an abuse email, it is OVH who could have received them, and if it really was a court order they would not pass it further downstream, they would just tell them who the user of the IP address was at the given time.
Thank you for educating me about my network, but too bad the servers weren’t hosted at OVH. However, I’m contacted directly about my IP space at OVH as well, because it’s reassigned to me. I have servers at other locations, but I greatly appreciate you knowing my network oh so well.
HIGHLIGHT: I appreciate and respect and am thankful to people doing any efforts at all to run exit nodes running, including setting up small re-seller accounts with big providers and do it. We do not have to advertise these facts to the mail list over and over again.
After all this company does not even own any IP address space at all, it is an OVH re-seller with a different html website, and all those exits can be shut down the minute OVH decides they received too many abuse complaints, and that is it. They can state as long as they want that they will not shut them down, just one day some person in management changes and decides they are not worth it, so bye-bye.
Quite some people here are running exits under their own AS numbers and own IP address space with different upstream providers that provide real diversity yet none of them advertise it so heavily.
HIGHLIGHT: No, you don’t appreciate and respect people doing any efforts at all to keep exit nodes running, otherwise, you wouldn’t of sent this email. No one was advertising, you could of easily emailed me and asked me for proof before launching into your little tirade like another gentleman here did because he was angry that he wasn’t getting three servers for free anymore on an one server trial. Too many people decide to draft an email and send to everyone instead of actually getting their facts straight for a change.
Oh, and no, again, we’re not just an OVH reseller, but thank you, maybe I should become one and maybe they’ll actually pay me something. I heard they have a good referral program.
ANOTHER HIGHLIGHT SO MY WORDS DO NOT GET TWISTED: I am not saying these relays are useless, they are just not such a big deal to keep reading about them over and over again.
Thanks for not understanding it wrong.
Well, it came across completely wrong.
Conrad
As Trumpf said "it was good for putting me to sleep" because I was looking for discussion on running relays.
Conrad Rockenhaus wrote:
S7R,
I emailed you privately with evidence hoping you would retract your statement. Unfortunately, you’ve decided to not reply, so I’ll gladly post a redacted copy of the court order to my blog: https://www.rockenhaus.com/2018/09/hey-now-court-order.html as well as respond to some of your finer points.
I confirm I got your private email but only read it few minutes ago because I was traveling and did not have internet access. Sorry for not being able to reply before you replied to the list, but all the points I would have sent in private remain the same and can be read in this email. Please see some clarifications inline.
I understand you needed to mask some sensitive data from the court order but you should not have masked the IP address because with that we could see what abuse contact info is listed for that IP address, or why did this court order land to you directly. Maybe other people here know more about me and can confirm or inform this. How did you/they get it? Physically wet signed or via fax / email attachment?
On Sep 9, 2018, at 8:25 AM, s7r s7r@sky-ip.org wrote:
I can see this way too often in the mail list and it looks like some pour attempts of advertising of a small hosting/server/vps company start-up. I sincerely doubt any court order was received on such short notice, especially because these procedures take significant time from the date an action happen to the date subpoena/court order is physically received. Subject of this email thread chosen to attract attention, yet with 0 proof.
My, oh my, you really need some education about Court Orders if you think they really need to “take some time” to get one. All a Police Officer has to do is convince a judge that they believe Party X holds evidence related to the crime, and they need Party X to release the evidence to bolster their case to probable cause for arrest or to determine who the suspect is. If a judge agrees, the court order is signed. It’s up to you to fight the court order.
Unfortunately for me I know much more about Court Orders and investigations than I'd want to.
I would like to see how I was advertising. I didn’t mention my company once, I sent it from my personal account, and I sent the email just to inform that another relay operator received a court order, which is an atypical topic brought up here.
Please re-read your email: you stated: "Greypony received its first Court Order yesterday. [...]".
I thought Greypony is your service, or you are in some way affiliated to it. This is how it looked like from previous emails, maybe I have misread if this is the case I apologize.
Secondly, the said company could not have received a court order, or even an abuse email, it is OVH who could have received them, and if it really was a court order they would not pass it further downstream, they would just tell them who the user of the IP address was at the given time
Thank you for educating me about my network, but too bad the servers weren’t hosted at OVH. However, I’m contacted directly about my IP space at OVH as well, because it’s reassigned to me. I have servers at other locations, but I greatly appreciate you knowing my network oh so well.
I was not educating you, but you misunderstood entirely. a) I stated OVH because this is what I see in ReleaySearch when I use your name as relay nickname search keyword.
b) you are contacted about your assigned (not owned) IP space of course but not directly, indirectly because OVH forwards the stuff to you. Again, I am only referring to the IP address space RENTED from OVH, I am not aware if you own any address space, but if you do kindly point me to the ARIN or whatever record so I can withdraw my statement and apologize. It should be public data so I am not requiring anything sensitive. Basically if this is provided my affirmations are instantly invalidated.
PROVIDER ASSIGNED IP addresses ARE NOT THE SAME WITH PROVIDER INDEPENDENT IP ADDRESSES.
I have searched those IP addresses with ARIN. They state nothing about you or your company, they indeed state that they are OVH's assigned to a customer, and a customer number, but that can be any customer (from the point of view of someone trying to send an abuse report).
c) I did not claim to know your network at all -- I stated only based on information I found in relaysearch, nothing more. I don't know where to search if you don't point me in the right direction.
HIGHLIGHT: I appreciate and respect and am thankful to people doing any efforts at all to run exit nodes running, including setting up small re-seller accounts with big providers and do it. We do not have to advertise these facts to the mail list over and over again.
After all this company does not even own any IP address space at all, it is an OVH re-seller with a different html website, and all those exits can be shut down the minute OVH decides they received too many abuse complaints, and that is it. They can state as long as they want that they will not shut them down, just one day some person in management changes and decides they are not worth it, so bye-bye.
Quite some people here are running exits under their own AS numbers and own IP address space with different upstream providers that provide real diversity yet none of them advertise it so heavily.
HIGHLIGHT: No, you don’t appreciate and respect people doing any efforts at all to keep exit nodes running, otherwise, you wouldn’t of sent this email. No one was advertising, you could of easily emailed me and asked me for proof before launching into your little tirade like another gentleman here did because he was angry that he wasn’t getting three servers for free anymore on an one server trial. Too many people decide to draft an email and send to everyone instead of actually getting their facts straight for a change.
Oh, and no, again, we’re not just an OVH reseller, but thank you, maybe I should become one and maybe they’ll actually pay me something. I heard they have a good referral program.
I agree - I can't possibly know this. It was just an assumption not based on anything. But if you are not an OVH re-seller you are just an OVH customer then?
ANOTHER HIGHLIGHT SO MY WORDS DO NOT GET TWISTED: I am not saying these relays are useless, they are just not such a big deal to keep reading about them over and over again.
Thanks for not understanding it wrong.
Well, it came across completely wrong.
Conrad
That is too bad. Taking remarks as accusations or getting overheated by them is not in the community spirit at all. I am not looking to further engage into any counter productive discussion nor to upset anyone on this mail list (including you of course) so if you can pin point me to the database I requested consider my affirmation withdrawn.
Hi,
On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 16:32:59 -0800 I beatthebastards@inbox.com wrote:
The cat from next door just walked in.
:) "Hey come on IRC and let's have a chitchat there."
I'm obviously not from the US but i heard of DHS's offshore stamp offices years ago, theintercept had a lot of it, but maybe my memory is weak and it was not DHS and rather related to "interrogations". Looking for the link i came across something more interesting.
https://afewthoughtsfrombruce.wordpress.com/2015/06/06/10-things-edward-snow... https://theintercept.com/snowden-sidtoday/
To not fall in the OT category: http://ea5faa5po25cf7fb.onion/projects/tor/ticket/27628
Have a great day (or night) and keep them up and running!
tor-relays@lists.torproject.org
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