Explaining Tor to worried parent
Hi everybody, My exit got suspended for a little a few hours today, even tho I contacted my isp before to explain the situation (it was related to a spam blacklist suspend policy). I got the matter resolved quickly but due to the annoyance I mentioned it to a parent. The conversation quickly devolved into worry and fear advising me to stop running it, to be honest now that I think about it from her perspective I can't blame her for thinking like this. However the responses and explanations from my end never hit the mark, I know why I'm doing it I know their might be risks but that I'm doing something that I believe in. Have you guys/gals ever faced situations similar to this? How did you handle it? Secondly she also raised the following question: 'if you don't do it somebody else will, so why do you put yourself at risk? Thirdly she detected from the conversation that a Exit Relay might not be free from legal issues and I can't say that this is not the case, but I do think her view of these issues is utmost grim bringing up my future and employment opportunities. How would do you view/explain the severity of these legal issues? Kind Regards, Willmar
On 11/12/2018 05:53 AM, DrNotThatEvil wrote:
Secondly she also raised the following question: 'if you don't do it somebody else will, so why do you put yourself at risk?
If not us, whom? If not now, when? ~Anabasis
Thirdly she detected from the conversation that a Exit Relay might not be free from legal issues andI can't say that this is not the case, but I do think her view of these issues is utmost grim bringing up my future and employment opportunities. How would do you view/explain the severity of these legal issues?
I run into this all the time whilst proselytizing for Tor, as for example at a local non-profit makerspace recently. "Kiddie porn! FBI raids!" was the hue and cry, whereupon people's brains shut down. But this is very much a public relations issue, not a legal issue, assuming that you have the prerequisite legal boilerplate in place. You do have to be loaded for bear to run an exit and mind your p's and q's; I myself am currently running an exit under the aegis of Zwiebelfreunde (Friends of the Onion) in Germany, as they take care of the technical and legal overhead & catch whatever flak comes its way.
Okay, this is the tldr version, if you want the long version e-mail me at abuse@to-surf.and-protect.net <mailto:abuse@to-surf.and-protect.net> 1. ISPs want to make money, in fact they have to turn in a profit to survive. Yeah, I know that sounds unbelievable. Tor is legal but someone has to take care of abuse mails. These support people want money for their work. If you get lots of abuse mails and the support person is working for 2 house on them and cost the company 50 euros and you are paying 10 euros for the hosting, they will try to get rid of you. Its simple as that. Another issue is that their is tier 1 support that is dumb as hell. Try to talk to KabelDeutschland “Internet Specialists" (now Vodafone) about DNS issues or the OSI model. They have no clue at all und you get suicidal after a few minutes over the incompetence. 2. I get a few hundred “normal” abuse mails a day. I answer them, 99,x% I get no reply on my answer. 3. I get lots of subpoenas and mails from FBI and other state actors. In these e-mails they are *always* treating me as attester, never as the defendant. 4. Even as the Bundeskriminalamt (Feral State Police here in Germany) chased me over multiple real estate I owe one the first thing they said to me was that they know Tor is legal and I am not a defendant but they need to follow the IP data and need to know that I have no data that would help them. 5. Stalking you a little, you should be from the Netherlands. So we have the same EU laws. 6. There is not a single EU citizen ever indicted over a Tor exit. Ignore the Austria judgment, that was bad press work and to long to explain atm. Markus
On 12. Nov 2018, at 13:53, DrNotThatEvil <relay@wilv.in> wrote:
Hi everybody,
My exit got suspended for a little a few hours today, even tho I contacted my isp before to explain the situation (it was related to a spam blacklist suspend policy). I got the matter resolved quickly but due to the annoyance I mentioned it to a parent.
The conversation quickly devolved into worry and fear advising me to stop running it, to be honest now that I think about it from her perspective I can't blame her for thinking like this. However the responses and explanations from my end never hit the mark, I know why I'm doing it I know their might be risks but that I'm doing something that I believe in.
Have you guys/gals ever faced situations similar to this? How did you handle it?
Secondly she also raised the following question: 'if you don't do it somebody else will, so why do you put yourself at risk?
Thirdly she detected from the conversation that a Exit Relay might not be free from legal issues and I can't say that this is not the case, but I do think her view of these issues is utmost grim bringing up my future and employment opportunities. How would do you view/explain the severity of these legal issues?
Kind Regards,
Willmar
_______________________________________________ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
On 11/12/2018 08:23 AM, niftybunny wrote:
1. ISPs want to make money, in fact they have to turn in a profit to survive. Yeah, I know that sounds unbelievable. Tor is legal but someone has to take care of abuse mails. These support people want money for their work. If you get lots of abuse mails and the support person is working for 2 house on them and cost the company 50 euros and you are paying 10 euros for the hosting, they will try to get rid of you. Its simple as that. Another issue is that their is tier 1 support that is dumb as hell. Try to talk to KabelDeutschland “Internet Specialists" (now Vodafone) about DNS issues or the OSI model. They have no clue at all und you get suicidal after a few minutes over the incompetence.
Just so. Legally ISP have to respond to DMCA notices, so the less legal overhead they have to budget for the happier they are. When I first began running Tor many moons ago I set up an exit node after an exchange of e-mails with my ISP. Nonetheless they got a DMCA notice (copyright violation) within two days and automatically cut me off at the knees. I'm severely deaf and I had to phone the "Help" desk who weren't about to deviate from their "Three strikes" script" and weren't interested whatsoever in any input from my end other than following their protocol.
Yeah, one of the complete bullshit things. I get around 200 emails per day like this one: -cut-cut-cut-cut-cut- Dear Sir or Madam: We are contacting you on behalf of Paramount Pictures Corporation (Paramount). Under penalty of perjury, I assert that IP-Echelon Pty. Ltd., (IP-Echelon) is authorized to act on behalf of the owner of the exclusive copyrights that are alleged to be infringed herein. IP-Echelon has become aware that the below IP addresses have been using your service for distributing video files, which contain infringing video content that is exclusively owned by Paramount. IP-Echelon has a good faith belief that the Paramount video content that is described in the below report has not been authorized for sharing or distribution by the copyright owner, its agent, or the law. I also assert that the information contained in this notice is accurate to the best of our knowledge. We are requesting your immediate assistance in removing and disabling access to the infringing material from your network. We also ask that you ensure the user and/or IP address owner refrains from future use and sharing of Paramount materials and property. In complying with this notice, Zwiebelfreunde e.V. should not destroy any evidence, which may be relevant in a lawsuit, relating to the infringement alleged, including all associated electronic documents and data relating to the presence of infringing items on your network, which shall be preserved while disabling public access, irrespective of any document retention or corporate policy to the contrary. Please note that this letter is not intended as a full statement of the facts; and does not constitute a waiver of any rights to recover damages, incurred by virtue of any unauthorized or infringing activities, occurring on your network. All such rights, as well as claims for other relief, are expressly reserved. Should you need to contact me, I may be reached at the following address: Adrian Leatherland On behalf of IP-Echelon as an agent for Paramount Address: 7083 Hollywood Blvd., Los Angeles, CA 90028, United States Email: p2p@copyright.ip-echelon.com <mailto:p2p@copyright.ip-echelon.com> Evidentiary Information: Protocol: BITTORRENT Infringed Work: The Dictator Infringing FileName: Dictator.2012.720p.BluRay.x264-LEONARDO_[scarabey.org <http://scarabey.org/>].mkv Infringing FileSize: 1717703741 Infringer's IP Address: 185.220.101.29 Infringer's Port: 45772 Initial Infringement Timestamp: 2018-11-12T16:43:39Z -cut-cut-cut-cut-cut- the best part: Should you need to contact me, I may be reached at the following address: Address: 7083 Hollywood Blvd., Los Angeles, CA 90028, United States Email: p2p@copyright.ip-echelon.com <mailto:p2p@copyright.ip-echelon.com> I tried to reach out to them at that e-mail. No reply. I tried to reach out to them via the company e-mail on their website. No reply. I called them, they will call me back. Never heard back from them. I even wrote a snail mail letter to them. Never answered. Now they get a reply from my mail script and thats it. Markus
On 12. Nov 2018, at 11:59, Kenneth Freeman <kencf0618@riseup.net> wrote:
On 11/12/2018 08:23 AM, niftybunny wrote:
1. ISPs want to make money, in fact they have to turn in a profit to survive. Yeah, I know that sounds unbelievable. Tor is legal but someone has to take care of abuse mails. These support people want money for their work. If you get lots of abuse mails and the support person is working for 2 house on them and cost the company 50 euros and you are paying 10 euros for the hosting, they will try to get rid of you. Its simple as that. Another issue is that their is tier 1 support that is dumb as hell. Try to talk to KabelDeutschland “Internet Specialists" (now Vodafone) about DNS issues or the OSI model. They have no clue at all und you get suicidal after a few minutes over the incompetence.
Just so. Legally ISP have to respond to DMCA notices, so the less legal overhead they have to budget for the happier they are. When I first began running Tor many moons ago I set up an exit node after an exchange of e-mails with my ISP. Nonetheless they got a DMCA notice (copyright violation) within two days and automatically cut me off at the knees. I'm severely deaf and I had to phone the "Help" desk who weren't about to deviate from their "Three strikes" script" and weren't interested whatsoever in any input from my end other than following their protocol.
<0xDD79757F.asc>_______________________________________________ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
On 11/12/2018 10:14 AM, niftybunny wrote:
Yeah, one of the complete bullshit things. I get around 200 emails per day like this one:
This is good to know. My ISP just put my service on hold, whereas IP-Echelon and its ilk can only sound ominous. Cue the theremin! Zwiebelfreunde is the service I use, so I'm glad to hear it's such a bulwark.
Easy (and shitty) solution: Just allow 443 and 80 on your Exit and you will never get those mails. I am beyond the point of giving a fuck so I allow everything besides E-mail. And I do get Spam E-Mail reports sent over Web Interfaces … Markus
On 12. Nov 2018, at 18:55, Kenneth Freeman <kencf0618@riseup.net> wrote:
On 11/12/2018 10:14 AM, niftybunny wrote:
Yeah, one of the complete bullshit things. I get around 200 emails per day like this one:
This is good to know. My ISP just put my service on hold, whereas IP-Echelon and its ilk can only sound ominous. Cue the theremin! Zwiebelfreunde is the service I use, so I'm glad to hear it's such a bulwark.
<0xDD79757F.asc>_______________________________________________ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
+1 On Nov 12, 2018, at 09:24, niftybunny <abuse@to-surf-and-protect.net<mailto:abuse@to-surf-and-protect.net>> wrote: Okay, this is the tldr version, if you want the long version e-mail me at abuse@to-surf.and-protect.net<mailto:abuse@to-surf.and-protect.net> 1. ISPs want to make money, in fact they have to turn in a profit to survive. Yeah, I know that sounds unbelievable. Tor is legal but someone has to take care of abuse mails. These support people want money for their work. If you get lots of abuse mails and the support person is working for 2 house on them and cost the company 50 euros and you are paying 10 euros for the hosting, they will try to get rid of you. Its simple as that. Another issue is that their is tier 1 support that is dumb as hell. Try to talk to KabelDeutschland "Internet Specialists" (now Vodafone) about DNS issues or the OSI model. They have no clue at all und you get suicidal after a few minutes over the incompetence. 2. I get a few hundred "normal" abuse mails a day. I answer them, 99,x% I get no reply on my answer. 3. I get lots of subpoenas and mails from FBI and other state actors. In these e-mails they are *always* treating me as attester, never as the defendant. 4. Even as the Bundeskriminalamt (Feral State Police here in Germany) chased me over multiple real estate I owe one the first thing they said to me was that they know Tor is legal and I am not a defendant but they need to follow the IP data and need to know that I have no data that would help them. 5. Stalking you a little, you should be from the Netherlands. So we have the same EU laws. 6. There is not a single EU citizen ever indicted over a Tor exit. Ignore the Austria judgment, that was bad press work and to long to explain atm. Markus On 12. Nov 2018, at 13:53, DrNotThatEvil <relay@wilv.in<mailto:relay@wilv.in>> wrote: Hi everybody, My exit got suspended for a little a few hours today, even tho I contacted my isp before to explain the situation (it was related to a spam blacklist suspend policy). I got the matter resolved quickly but due to the annoyance I mentioned it to a parent. The conversation quickly devolved into worry and fear advising me to stop running it, to be honest now that I think about it from her perspective I can't blame her for thinking like this. However the responses and explanations from my end never hit the mark, I know why I'm doing it I know their might be risks but that I'm doing something that I believe in. Have you guys/gals ever faced situations similar to this? How did you handle it? Secondly she also raised the following question: 'if you don't do it somebody else will, so why do you put yourself at risk? Thirdly she detected from the conversation that a Exit Relay might not be free from legal issues and I can't say that this is not the case, but I do think her view of these issues is utmost grim bringing up my future and employment opportunities. How would do you view/explain the severity of these legal issues? Kind Regards, Willmar _______________________________________________ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org<mailto:tor-relays@lists.torproject.org> https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays _______________________________________________ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org<mailto:tor-relays@lists.torproject.org> https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 13:53:55 +0100 DrNotThatEvil <relay@wilv.in> wrote:
Have you guys/gals ever faced situations similar to this? How did you handle it?
I have not, but to add to what others have said: - One of the benefits of running an exit is that it can be educational, from the perspective of the law as well as technology. You can get some experience with dealing with DMCA/abuse requests and potentially talking to law enforcement about a service that you can be confident of the legal status of. That can be valuable before you need to talk to LE or "rights holders" for any other reason throughout your life. Assuming niftybunny is correct on that info of operators getting prosecuted, you are arguably more likely to be prosecuted for something you have no relation to (e.g. police paperwork mixing you up with someone else) than for running an exit. - You mentioned "employment opportunities", but assuming your field of choice is related, I would think that running an exit would _improve_ your employment opportunities, even (or especially) if you encounter public legal trouble as long as you're not stupid about it. - If it's causing you issues, just run a middle relay; it's not a big deal. All relays (properly configured etc etc) are useful, even bridges. If you're pretending that you're making a big difference to some poor persecuted insurgent in China or whatever, keep in mind that I don't believe exits help clients reach hidden services, but middle relays and bridges do. - Running relays/exits is "cool" (...right?). You're just not with it, mom. Just don't run an exit from home. -- Andrew Deason adeason@dson.org
Thanks for all the responses. If the issue ever comes up in the near future I'm defiantly gonna bring up some of the same points. I'm learning a lot while running this thing, secondly thanks for pointing out that the Legal stuff isn't a scary thing but a valuable thing to learn as well. I have never dealt with the legal aspect so it's even more important to get my feet wet and get experience I just never looked at it from that aspect. Secondly the negative view about "future opportunities" is something one of my parents brought up, It's defiantly not a view that I share. I view that expanding my experience in running servers makes me write better software (since you know what it's like) and I'm sure that a employer might share that view. - Willmar
participants (5)
-
Andrew Deason -
DrNotThatEvil -
John Ricketts -
Kenneth Freeman -
niftybunny