Netflix overblocking non-exit Tor relays
tl;dr: Even paying customers sharing IPs with non-exit Tor relays are now blocked from accessing Netflix Hello everyone ! After two very fruitless attempts to get the issue silently resolved through proper Netflix support channels, the time has come to make this public. As some of you have probably already read in the news, Netflix recently announced a crackdown on what they call "VPN Pirates" and what I call "paying customers using the same benefits of globalization that global companies like Netflix (ab)use for their taxes". They have now obviously changed their strategy regarding the Tor network. I am operating (among others) a middle-relay on a German residential fixed-ip VDSL-50 line (dc6jgk1/486740353B905AA4731F82C0B4CC25821A62C6E3) behind a NAT. Until 2 days ago, none of the devices sharing the same external IP address had any problem connecting to Netflix and there never was a Tor exit relay on that IP as far as I can tell. It is also obviously not possible for users of the Tor network to connect to Netflix through middle relays. As a consequence they should not be classifying such IP addresses as VPNs/Proxies and they should not be blocking them. This has been escalated and explained twice to "technical supervisors" in their callcenters. They did however not leave the impression that they a) care or b) intend to fix this at some point by parsing the Tor network information properly instead of using whatever cheap&wrong hack they use now. The official response from Netflix is that you now need to make a choice between operating that Tor relay (of any type) and the ability to watch Netflix. They also strictly refuse to refund any remaining credit in the customer account. My personal choice with regards to that blackmailing is as clear my next steps (conditional cancellation, 14 day deadline for refund and a legal challenge of their German AGB with regards to this issue). I am allergic to being blackmailed like that and being called a pirate by a service I legitimately paid for. For those of you who just would like to contribute to the Tor network without having trouble like that, please do not let this nonsense stop you. A more diversified Tor network is a more healthy network and I would really like to see more normal users operating tor relays operating in as many different locations as possible - including DSL lines "that are there anyways". If you do not want to be put into a position where you have to choose between your contribution to the network and some legal and paid-for entertainment, you might want to operate only a bridge until the issue has been resolved. If you already have the same problem, make it as expensive for Netflix as possible and spread the word about why this block (and geoblocking in general) is wrong. Thanks ! Kind regards, Gero / dc6jgk
I've also had several extensive conversations with Netflix support about this but haven't received an answer beyond a generic 'there is a problem with your router' type response. You mention an 'official response from Netflix' - are you willing to share this? Mostly I'm interested if this response acknowledges that the block is because of Tor or not. From my interactions with Netflix support they made a very clear effort to not acknowledge that they were blocking me and that the issue was at my end. -- Jonas On Fri, Feb 26, 2016 at 11:42 PM, Gero Kuehn <gero.kuehn@gkware.com> wrote:
tl;dr: Even paying customers sharing IPs with non-exit Tor relays are now blocked from accessing Netflix
Hello everyone !
After two very fruitless attempts to get the issue silently resolved through proper Netflix support channels, the time has come to make this public. As some of you have probably already read in the news, Netflix recently announced a crackdown on what they call "VPN Pirates" and what I call "paying customers using the same benefits of globalization that global companies like Netflix (ab)use for their taxes".
They have now obviously changed their strategy regarding the Tor network. I am operating (among others) a middle-relay on a German residential fixed-ip VDSL-50 line (dc6jgk1/486740353B905AA4731F82C0B4CC25821A62C6E3) behind a NAT. Until 2 days ago, none of the devices sharing the same external IP address had any problem connecting to Netflix and there never was a Tor exit relay on that IP as far as I can tell. It is also obviously not possible for users of the Tor network to connect to Netflix through middle relays. As a consequence they should not be classifying such IP addresses as VPNs/Proxies and they should not be blocking them. This has been escalated and explained twice to "technical supervisors" in their callcenters. They did however not leave the impression that they a) care or b) intend to fix this at some point by parsing the Tor network information properly instead of using whatever cheap&wrong hack they use now.
The official response from Netflix is that you now need to make a choice between operating that Tor relay (of any type) and the ability to watch Netflix. They also strictly refuse to refund any remaining credit in the customer account.
My personal choice with regards to that blackmailing is as clear my next steps (conditional cancellation, 14 day deadline for refund and a legal challenge of their German AGB with regards to this issue). I am allergic to being blackmailed like that and being called a pirate by a service I legitimately paid for.
For those of you who just would like to contribute to the Tor network without having trouble like that, please do not let this nonsense stop you. A more diversified Tor network is a more healthy network and I would really like to see more normal users operating tor relays operating in as many different locations as possible - including DSL lines "that are there anyways". If you do not want to be put into a position where you have to choose between your contribution to the network and some legal and paid-for entertainment, you might want to operate only a bridge until the issue has been resolved. If you already have the same problem, make it as expensive for Netflix as possible and spread the word about why this block (and geoblocking in general) is wrong. Thanks !
Kind regards,
Gero / dc6jgk
_______________________________________________ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
Hello Jonas !
You mention an 'official response from Netflix' - are you willing to share this?
Unfortunately this is nothing I got in writing yet after only 2 days. At the beginning of the last call, I heard a "this call might be recorded" announcement. When I realized that they are not willing to change anything, I did explicitly ask the supervisor if my 2-point summary of their position after 40 minutes of intensive discussion is accurate: 1) "you need to disable Tor to use the service" 2) "we do not refund credit, your setup needs to meet the conditions we define" This was verbally confirmed and this will be the basis for my attempts to get at least the remaining credit back if they refuse to unblock the IP. I also got the pointless "please refresh your internet connection" lecture quite a few times before my calls were forwarded to the supervisors. The first-level support does not even seem to know what a fixed IP-adress is or what a proxy actually does. Like most call centers, they only seem to follow a standardized flow chart for customer support at this level. Kind regards, Gero / dc6jgk
On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 12:42:38AM +0100, Gero Kuehn wrote:
They did however not leave the impression that they a) care or b) intend to fix this at some point by parsing the Tor network information properly instead of using whatever cheap&wrong hack they use now.
There is actually a service that they can use to do this parsing for them: https://check.torproject.org/cgi-bin/TorBulkExitList.py e.g. https://check.torproject.org/cgi-bin/TorBulkExitList.py?ip=128.31.0.34&port=... Now, I bet Netflix has more than one IP address. It would not be hard to adapt this service to help them do what they should be wanting to do. See https://www.torproject.org/docs/faq-abuse#Bans for more details. One of our next steps might be to find a useful technical contact inside Netflix, so they can start doing this advocacy and education from the inside. --Roger
Hi everyone, apparently this is happening with a lot of relays node (My italian relay node was blocked too) https://www.reddit.com/r/netflix/comments/472kqu/netflix_started_blocking_to... As Roger said we have to try to identify someone inside Netflix to pitch "our cause", on the other hand, it will probably be really useful to try to step up also in public (social/PR), for example asking to EFF to support this. We are struggling convincing people to open nodes, we really have to protect them, we will see a decrease number of nodes Aidoru On 2016-02-26 23:58, Roger Dingledine wrote:
On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 12:42:38AM +0100, Gero Kuehn wrote:
They did however not leave the impression that they a) care or b) intend to fix this at some point by parsing the Tor network information properly instead of using whatever cheap&wrong hack they use now.
There is actually a service that they can use to do this parsing for them: https://check.torproject.org/cgi-bin/TorBulkExitList.py e.g. https://check.torproject.org/cgi-bin/TorBulkExitList.py?ip=128.31.0.34&port=...
Now, I bet Netflix has more than one IP address. It would not be hard to adapt this service to help them do what they should be wanting to do.
See https://www.torproject.org/docs/faq-abuse#Bans for more details.
One of our next steps might be to find a useful technical contact inside Netflix, so they can start doing this advocacy and education from the inside.
--Roger
Yesterday I forwarded this thread to Neil Hunt - the Chief Product Officer at Netflix with the hope that he would read it and have received the following reply a few hours ago. Noted - this will go to the right technical people.
I'm hoping this is a sign Netflix will take this seriously. -- Jonas On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 12:20 PM, <tor_manager@autistici.org> wrote:
Hi everyone, apparently this is happening with a lot of relays node (My italian relay node was blocked too) https://www.reddit.com/r/netflix/comments/472kqu/netflix_started_blocking_to... As Roger said we have to try to identify someone inside Netflix to pitch "our cause", on the other hand, it will probably be really useful to try to step up also in public (social/PR), for example asking to EFF to support this.
We are struggling convincing people to open nodes, we really have to protect them, we will see a decrease number of nodes
Aidoru
On 2016-02-26 23:58, Roger Dingledine wrote:
On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 12:42:38AM +0100, Gero Kuehn wrote:
They did however not leave the impression that they a) care or b) intend to fix this at some point by parsing the Tor network information properly instead of using whatever cheap&wrong hack they use now.
There is actually a service that they can use to do this parsing for them: https://check.torproject.org/cgi-bin/TorBulkExitList.py e.g.
https://check.torproject.org/cgi-bin/TorBulkExitList.py?ip=128.31.0.34&port=...
Now, I bet Netflix has more than one IP address. It would not be hard to adapt this service to help them do what they should be wanting to do.
See https://www.torproject.org/docs/faq-abuse#Bans for more details.
One of our next steps might be to find a useful technical contact inside Netflix, so they can start doing this advocacy and education from the inside.
--Roger
_______________________________________________ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
I had an update from Neil Hunt @ Netflix I'm told that we pushed a fix this weekend that should have solved the
problem - lmk
Things are working again at my end - can anyone else confirm? -- Jonas On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 12:38 PM, Jonas Bergler <jonas@bergler.name> wrote:
Yesterday I forwarded this thread to Neil Hunt - the Chief Product Officer at Netflix with the hope that he would read it and have received the following reply a few hours ago.
Noted - this will go to the right technical people.
I'm hoping this is a sign Netflix will take this seriously.
-- Jonas
On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 12:20 PM, <tor_manager@autistici.org> wrote:
Hi everyone, apparently this is happening with a lot of relays node (My italian relay node was blocked too) https://www.reddit.com/r/netflix/comments/472kqu/netflix_started_blocking_to... As Roger said we have to try to identify someone inside Netflix to pitch "our cause", on the other hand, it will probably be really useful to try to step up also in public (social/PR), for example asking to EFF to support this.
We are struggling convincing people to open nodes, we really have to protect them, we will see a decrease number of nodes
Aidoru
On 2016-02-26 23:58, Roger Dingledine wrote:
On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 12:42:38AM +0100, Gero Kuehn wrote:
They did however not leave the impression that they a) care or b) intend to fix this at some point by parsing the Tor network information properly instead of using whatever cheap&wrong hack they use now.
There is actually a service that they can use to do this parsing for them: https://check.torproject.org/cgi-bin/TorBulkExitList.py e.g.
https://check.torproject.org/cgi-bin/TorBulkExitList.py?ip=128.31.0.34&port=...
Now, I bet Netflix has more than one IP address. It would not be hard to adapt this service to help them do what they should be wanting to do.
See https://www.torproject.org/docs/faq-abuse#Bans for more details.
One of our next steps might be to find a useful technical contact inside Netflix, so they can start doing this advocacy and education from the inside.
--Roger
_______________________________________________ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
2016-03-01 7:53 GMT+01:00 Jonas Bergler <jonas@bergler.name>:
I had an update from Neil Hunt @ Netflix
I'm told that we pushed a fix this weekend that should have solved the problem - lmk
Things are working again at my end - can anyone else confirm?
It has always worked for me, using a non-VPS Dutch subscription with this relay: https://atlas.torproject.org/#details/4E8CE6F5651E7342C1E7E5ED031E82078134FB... René
On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 12:38 PM, Jonas Bergler <jonas@bergler.name> wrote:
Yesterday I forwarded this thread to Neil Hunt - the Chief Product Officer at Netflix with the hope that he would read it and have received the following reply a few hours ago.
Noted - this will go to the right technical people.
I'm hoping this is a sign Netflix will take this seriously.
-- Jonas
On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 12:20 PM, <tor_manager@autistici.org> wrote:
Hi everyone, apparently this is happening with a lot of relays node (My italian relay node was blocked too) https://www.reddit.com/r/netflix/comments/472kqu/netflix_started_blocking_to... As Roger said we have to try to identify someone inside Netflix to pitch "our cause", on the other hand, it will probably be really useful to try to step up also in public (social/PR), for example asking to EFF to support this.
We are struggling convincing people to open nodes, we really have to protect them, we will see a decrease number of nodes
Aidoru
On 2016-02-26 23:58, Roger Dingledine wrote:
On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 12:42:38AM +0100, Gero Kuehn wrote:
They did however not leave the impression that they a) care or b) intend to fix this at some point by parsing the Tor network information properly instead of using whatever cheap&wrong hack they use now.
There is actually a service that they can use to do this parsing for them: https://check.torproject.org/cgi-bin/TorBulkExitList.py e.g.
https://check.torproject.org/cgi-bin/TorBulkExitList.py?ip=128.31.0.34&port=...
Now, I bet Netflix has more than one IP address. It would not be hard to adapt this service to help them do what they should be wanting to do.
See https://www.torproject.org/docs/faq-abuse#Bans for more details.
One of our next steps might be to find a useful technical contact inside Netflix, so they can start doing this advocacy and education from the inside.
--Roger
_______________________________________________ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
_______________________________________________ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
I had an update from Neil Hunt @ Netflix
I'm told that we pushed a fix this weekend that should have solved the problem - lmk Things are working again at my end - can anyone else confirm?
Yes. The feedback to them seems to have worked and the error message is gone now. Thanks to everyone who helped to talk them out of this! Gero / dc6jgk
Is this now broken / reverted again? I'm getting a "you seem to be using an unblocker or proxy" warning when trying to access Netflix through my US middle relay... On 1 Mar 2016 7:38 pm, "Gero Kuehn" <gero.kuehn@gkware.com> wrote:
I had an update from Neil Hunt @ Netflix
I'm told that we pushed a fix this weekend that should have solved the problem - lmk Things are working again at my end - can anyone else confirm?
Yes. The feedback to them seems to have worked and the error message is gone now. Thanks to everyone who helped to talk them out of this!
Gero / dc6jgk
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In my experience this is a common enough phenomenon. Happened to me twice here. All kinds of sites employ “professional” services that keep them “safe” by letting them know when someone uses the service from a Tor address, or plain blocking such surfers. The problem is that these “professionals” simply read the Tor consensus and ignore the (non) existence the Exit flag in the nodes. So someone who runs a relay node from his home can be reported as “using Tor” because his home IP address is listed as running a node, even though his node does not have Exit flag. Last time this happened to me it was with an online shop and the message I got on the screen an email address of the “security” service which I should contact to clarify the issue. Instead of doing so I used the domain name of the email address to identify the company, and then wrote to the online shop that their ‘security” service provider is ruining their business by blocking and scaring away their online customers, falsely claiming that they use Tor. Half an hour I could access the site without a problem.
I can attest to this, several weeks ago I was running a tor relay from home and netflix dissappeared, after going through the song and dance routine with support I decided it wasnt worth the hassle, so my relay is now on a french vps. fortunately for me i own several ip's so it wasn't a real issue but it is in my view largely overbearing and bad business practice to blacklist relays in this fashion , I am going to check if the blacklisted ip has been cleared now but my hopes are slim regarding this. regards SJ On Fri, Feb 26, 2016 at 6:42 PM, Gero Kuehn <gero.kuehn@gkware.com> wrote:
tl;dr: Even paying customers sharing IPs with non-exit Tor relays are now blocked from accessing Netflix
Hello everyone !
After two very fruitless attempts to get the issue silently resolved through proper Netflix support channels, the time has come to make this public. As some of you have probably already read in the news, Netflix recently announced a crackdown on what they call "VPN Pirates" and what I call "paying customers using the same benefits of globalization that global companies like Netflix (ab)use for their taxes".
They have now obviously changed their strategy regarding the Tor network. I am operating (among others) a middle-relay on a German residential fixed-ip VDSL-50 line (dc6jgk1/486740353B905AA4731F82C0B4CC25821A62C6E3) behind a NAT. Until 2 days ago, none of the devices sharing the same external IP address had any problem connecting to Netflix and there never was a Tor exit relay on that IP as far as I can tell. It is also obviously not possible for users of the Tor network to connect to Netflix through middle relays. As a consequence they should not be classifying such IP addresses as VPNs/Proxies and they should not be blocking them. This has been escalated and explained twice to "technical supervisors" in their callcenters. They did however not leave the impression that they a) care or b) intend to fix this at some point by parsing the Tor network information properly instead of using whatever cheap&wrong hack they use now.
The official response from Netflix is that you now need to make a choice between operating that Tor relay (of any type) and the ability to watch Netflix. They also strictly refuse to refund any remaining credit in the customer account.
My personal choice with regards to that blackmailing is as clear my next steps (conditional cancellation, 14 day deadline for refund and a legal challenge of their German AGB with regards to this issue). I am allergic to being blackmailed like that and being called a pirate by a service I legitimately paid for.
For those of you who just would like to contribute to the Tor network without having trouble like that, please do not let this nonsense stop you. A more diversified Tor network is a more healthy network and I would really like to see more normal users operating tor relays operating in as many different locations as possible - including DSL lines "that are there anyways". If you do not want to be put into a position where you have to choose between your contribution to the network and some legal and paid-for entertainment, you might want to operate only a bridge until the issue has been resolved. If you already have the same problem, make it as expensive for Netflix as possible and spread the word about why this block (and geoblocking in general) is wrong. Thanks !
Kind regards,
Gero / dc6jgk
_______________________________________________ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
hi On 02/26/16 18:42, Gero Kuehn wrote:
tl;dr: Even paying customers sharing IPs with non-exit Tor relays are now blocked from accessing Netflix
yes, this has just happened to me. i spent an hour yesterday in a chat with netflix customer service and never once was tor mentioned. i signed in and out of nexflix, removed and re-added the channel to my roku, and did a whois query for them on my router's ip address. i should have a log of this discussion- if it is of any value. to me, if i have to choose between tor and netflix, it's easy: tor wins. from this tread, i don't get the sense that netflix is interested in changing anything. it is only speculation, but i'd guess there's a financial incentive provided to netflix for hostility to tor. do i have to say anything other than cloudflare? well, there are many things to do with my time besides watching teevee. although i just started watching occupied [okkupert] which i liked a lot ... -- \js: !
I dont think its hostility. For the normal support assistant security and/or TOR is like a black hole and they do not know anything about it or know stuff from the mainstream press which is mostly complete bullshit. I would not blame the support person, try to get a supervisor who knows what we are doing. Good luck! Markus
from this tread, i don't get the sense that netflix is interested in changing anything. it is only speculation, but i'd guess there's a financial incentive provided to netflix for hostility to tor.
do i have to say anything other than cloudflare?
well, there are many things to do with my time besides watching teevee. although i just started watching occupied [okkupert] which i liked a lot ...
-- \js: ! _______________________________________________ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
I seriously doubt it's hostility. The likeliest thing is they were looking to stop people from using Tor to bypass country restrictions. So when they found a public list of all the Tor nodes, they blocked them all. Not realizing that only a few of them are actually capable of proxying. For them to continue their "attack on unblockers" while allowing legal Tor users to watch, they need to simply read the flags of each node to find if they are exit or not. Then block only exit. This should fix almost all problems. As very very few people will run an exit node from home. So blocking the exit ips will not block legitimate Netflix users. We just need to contact the right people. On Feb 27, 2016 7:53 PM, "Markus Koch" <niftybunny@googlemail.com> wrote:
I dont think its hostility. For the normal support assistant security and/or TOR is like a black hole and they do not know anything about it or know stuff from the mainstream press which is mostly complete bullshit. I would not blame the support person, try to get a supervisor who knows what we are doing. Good luck!
Markus
from this tread, i don't get the sense that netflix is interested in changing anything. it is only speculation, but i'd guess there's a financial incentive provided to netflix for hostility to tor.
do i have to say anything other than cloudflare?
well, there are many things to do with my time besides watching teevee. although i just started watching occupied [okkupert] which i liked a lot
...
-- \js: ! _______________________________________________ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
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On 02/28/16 02:08, Jamis Hartley wrote:
I seriously doubt it's hostility.
you may be right. as i said, it was only speculation on my part ... but why didn't netflix support say it's your tor node when i was chatting with netflix support for an hour? or even- we are detecting a proxy on your network? the support person left we with instructions to call roku and ask about the DNS configuration of my hardware. and she was not kidding. so it's this indirectness that make me suspicious. also- the ip that my roku uses is clearly located in MA USA. as i said, i sent her the whois info for my ip. maybe i am just paranoid- but it just doesn't add up. anyway, i'm looking forward to taking more walks and naps and reading more books now that i've cancelled netflix- ymmv! if this every gets "fixed" i might re-subscribe- but maybe even not ... -- \js: !
Because the support people in the call center are not IT people. They don't understand computers and were never trained with tor nodes. They were literally given cookie cutter responses to tell you when you come and say that you are being blocked because of a proxy. They don't have any knowledge of the tech behind it. On Feb 28, 2016 9:38 AM, "john saylor" <js0000@riseup.net> wrote:
On 02/28/16 02:08, Jamis Hartley wrote:
I seriously doubt it's hostility.
you may be right. as i said, it was only speculation on my part ...
but why didn't netflix support say it's your tor node when i was chatting with netflix support for an hour? or even- we are detecting a proxy on your network?
the support person left we with instructions to call roku and ask about the DNS configuration of my hardware.
and she was not kidding.
so it's this indirectness that make me suspicious. also- the ip that my roku uses is clearly located in MA USA. as i said, i sent her the whois info for my ip.
maybe i am just paranoid- but it just doesn't add up.
anyway, i'm looking forward to taking more walks and naps and reading more books now that i've cancelled netflix- ymmv!
if this every gets "fixed" i might re-subscribe- but maybe even not ...
-- \js: ! _______________________________________________ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
On 02/28/16 11:42, Jamis Hartley wrote:
Because the support people in the call center are not IT people. They don't understand computers and were never trained with tor nodes. They were literally given cookie cutter responses to tell you when you come and say that you are being blocked because of a proxy.
but no one ever said that it even might be a tor node [or even a "proxy"] on my network to me. it was just all about my local hardware, and account and so on ... when i called i said netflix worked yesterday and not today. there were no changes to my network in this time period. so then what changed? [answer: netflix policy] the error message was vaguely about proxies, but since my tor node is only a relay, i am not using it as a proxy at all. and it was never brought up in the support call in any way ... in fact, after my initial statement about the message on the screen, i don't think proxies were mentioned ever again. i was told just remove netflix from roku, sign in, sign out, put your right foot in, put your right foot out, and that's what it's all about also, someone besides the support engineer i spoke with wrote the cookie cutter responses and *they* must have a clue. if tor nodes are being blocked someone knows enough to figure out how to block them. if their policy is to block tor nodes, then say it. netflix has gobs of cash and customer support is important to any company that makes money with network services. but it was never said. in fact i was instructed to do just about everything else ... -- \js: !
On 02/28/2016 11:42 AM, Jamis Hartley wrote:
Because the support people in the call center are not IT people. They don't understand computers and were never trained with tor nodes. They were literally given cookie cutter responses to tell you when you come and say that you are being blocked because of a proxy. They don't have any knowledge of the tech behind it.
I'll disagree to that. A few hours ago, Netflix's tech support guided me through a completely unrelated technical issue, but the technician was highly knowledgeable in IT, security, and the workings of the Internet. Obviously, I was only chatting with him for a few minutes while my equipment was rebooting and I have a sample size of one, but I don't think it's fair to dismiss the technical capacities of people in call centers just because they work in call centers. For an issue like this, you probably need to try to talk to someone above the average tech support responder, since they are trained to how to diagnose and repair common issues, and "Netflix is blocking non-exit Tor relays" certainly isn't high on that list. -- Jesse V
Well of course it is possible to find someone knowledgeable of IT, but the chances of that are similar to that of walking up to a random person on the street and having them be knowledgeable of it. I shouldn't have said absolutely everyone, but the call center people are not trained in IT. The person you talked to must have learned on his own. On Feb 28, 2016 5:37 PM, "Jesse V" <kernelcorn@riseup.net> wrote:
On 02/28/2016 11:42 AM, Jamis Hartley wrote:
Because the support people in the call center are not IT people. They don't understand computers and were never trained with tor nodes. They were literally given cookie cutter responses to tell you when you come and say that you are being blocked because of a proxy. They don't have any knowledge of the tech behind it.
I'll disagree to that. A few hours ago, Netflix's tech support guided me through a completely unrelated technical issue, but the technician was highly knowledgeable in IT, security, and the workings of the Internet. Obviously, I was only chatting with him for a few minutes while my equipment was rebooting and I have a sample size of one, but I don't think it's fair to dismiss the technical capacities of people in call centers just because they work in call centers.
For an issue like this, you probably need to try to talk to someone above the average tech support responder, since they are trained to how to diagnose and repair common issues, and "Netflix is blocking non-exit Tor relays" certainly isn't high on that list.
-- Jesse V
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Hi, I got ya, but what i do is running VPN on VPS and all home traffic is going over that IP, not ISP. I don't know if you can route your traffic in your home in this way, but I don't see why not. Only .. I don't have Netflix and I don't know if you have box only for it or you have one box for all, router, phone, tv and netflix. In that case, you don't have much of the choice, new hardware on no more Netflix. ;) Le 28/02/2016 08:08, Jamis Hartley a écrit :
I seriously doubt it's hostility. The likeliest thing is they were looking to stop people from using Tor to bypass country restrictions. So when they found a public list of all the Tor nodes, they blocked them all. Not realizing that only a few of them are actually capable of proxying.
For them to continue their "attack on unblockers" while allowing legal Tor users to watch, they need to simply read the flags of each node to find if they are exit or not. Then block only exit.
This should fix almost all problems. As very very few people will run an exit node from home. So blocking the exit ips will not block legitimate Netflix users.
We just need to contact the right people.
On Feb 27, 2016 7:53 PM, "Markus Koch" <niftybunny@googlemail.com <mailto:niftybunny@googlemail.com>> wrote:
I dont think its hostility. For the normal support assistant security and/or TOR is like a black hole and they do not know anything about it or know stuff from the mainstream press which is mostly complete bullshit. I would not blame the support person, try to get a supervisor who knows what we are doing. Good luck!
Markus
> > from this tread, i don't get the sense that netflix is interested in > changing anything. it is only speculation, but i'd guess there's a > financial incentive provided to netflix for hostility to tor. > > do i have to say anything other than cloudflare? > > well, there are many things to do with my time besides watching teevee. > although i just started watching occupied [okkupert] which i liked a lot ... > > -- > \js: ! > _______________________________________________ > tor-relays mailing list > tor-relays@lists.torproject.org <mailto:tor-relays@lists.torproject.org> > https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays _______________________________________________ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org <mailto:tor-relays@lists.torproject.org> https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
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Netflix engineering should be clueful enough to only block Tor-exit nodes. We probably just have to find a way to get in touch with one of their network engineers? -V On Saturday, 27 February 2016, Gero Kuehn <gero.kuehn@gkware.com> wrote:
tl;dr: Even paying customers sharing IPs with non-exit Tor relays are now blocked from accessing Netflix
Hello everyone !
After two very fruitless attempts to get the issue silently resolved through proper Netflix support channels, the time has come to make this public. As some of you have probably already read in the news, Netflix recently announced a crackdown on what they call "VPN Pirates" and what I call "paying customers using the same benefits of globalization that global companies like Netflix (ab)use for their taxes".
They have now obviously changed their strategy regarding the Tor network. I am operating (among others) a middle-relay on a German residential fixed-ip VDSL-50 line (dc6jgk1/486740353B905AA4731F82C0B4CC25821A62C6E3) behind a NAT. Until 2 days ago, none of the devices sharing the same external IP address had any problem connecting to Netflix and there never was a Tor exit relay on that IP as far as I can tell. It is also obviously not possible for users of the Tor network to connect to Netflix through middle relays. As a consequence they should not be classifying such IP addresses as VPNs/Proxies and they should not be blocking them. This has been escalated and explained twice to "technical supervisors" in their callcenters. They did however not leave the impression that they a) care or b) intend to fix this at some point by parsing the Tor network information properly instead of using whatever cheap&wrong hack they use now.
The official response from Netflix is that you now need to make a choice between operating that Tor relay (of any type) and the ability to watch Netflix. They also strictly refuse to refund any remaining credit in the customer account.
My personal choice with regards to that blackmailing is as clear my next steps (conditional cancellation, 14 day deadline for refund and a legal challenge of their German AGB with regards to this issue). I am allergic to being blackmailed like that and being called a pirate by a service I legitimately paid for.
For those of you who just would like to contribute to the Tor network without having trouble like that, please do not let this nonsense stop you. A more diversified Tor network is a more healthy network and I would really like to see more normal users operating tor relays operating in as many different locations as possible - including DSL lines "that are there anyways". If you do not want to be put into a position where you have to choose between your contribution to the network and some legal and paid-for entertainment, you might want to operate only a bridge until the issue has been resolved. If you already have the same problem, make it as expensive for Netflix as possible and spread the word about why this block (and geoblocking in general) is wrong. Thanks !
Kind regards,
Gero / dc6jgk
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participants (14)
-
Gero Kuehn -
Jamis Hartley -
Jesse V -
john saylor -
Jonas Bergler -
Markus Koch -
Nenad Marjanovic -
Rana -
René Ladan -
Roger Dingledine -
Sam Lanning -
Steven Jones -
tor_manager＠autistici.org -
Virgil Griffith