Policy Question: Tor Exits at Universities, Corporate Networks, etc
Recently we've been discussing a Tor Exit in Turkey censoring access to various websites. It's less to some err, disagreements on what should and should not be allowed. I've seen a few opinions: *) It grants an outside view at what Turkey censors *) It could push new tor users away This leads me to question if it's okay for a Tor Exit to be on a censored network are the following scenarios now allowed? *) A Tor Exit behind a Corporate Network and Web Filter *) A Tor Exit behind a University Network and Web Filter Under the logic with the Turkey exit relay it should be right? Cordially, Nathaniel
On 09/01/2018 02:56 PM, Nathaniel Suchy wrote:
Recently we've been discussing a Tor Exit in Turkey censoring access to various websites.
It's less to some err, disagreements on what should and should not be allowed. I've seen a few opinions: *) It grants an outside view at what Turkey censors
Then it should be in a separate category, not used by default, but available for research purposes.
*) It could push new tor users away
That's how I see it. But maybe it's unlikely enough to matter.
This leads me to question if it's okay for a Tor Exit to be on a censored network are the following scenarios now allowed? *) A Tor Exit behind a Corporate Network and Web Filter *) A Tor Exit behind a University Network and Web Filter Under the logic with the Turkey exit relay it should be right?
Cordially, Nathaniel
I see absolutely no use for such censored relays. As others have said, what does it matter whether relay operators do bad things, or whether they run relays in environments that do bad things? Bad things are bad things, whatever the reason.
I know this is an issue of semantics here, but when you say “Tor Exit in Turkey censoring access to various access to various websites” you’re kind of putting the onus on them directly instead of the repressive anti-free speech regime that they are operating the the exit under. Why not be more clear and direct with your language and state the “Tor Exit in Turkey that is being actively censored by it’s upstream” or the “Tor Exit that is being actively censored by an unknown third party” instead of putting the blame on them? Furthermore, even western countries have limits to what you can access from those countries. As others have said - you can’t access torrent sites from the UK, heck, you can’t even access EncyclopediaDramatica (certain pages of it anyway) from Australia. Should we mark those exits as bad because they can’t access certain pages as well?
On Sep 1, 2018, at 4:56 PM, Nathaniel Suchy <me@lunorian.is> wrote:
Recently we've been discussing a Tor Exit in Turkey censoring access to various websites.
It's less to some err, disagreements on what should and should not be allowed. I've seen a few opinions: *) It grants an outside view at what Turkey censors *) It could push new tor users away
This leads me to question if it's okay for a Tor Exit to be on a censored network are the following scenarios now allowed? *) A Tor Exit behind a Corporate Network and Web Filter *) A Tor Exit behind a University Network and Web Filter Under the logic with the Turkey exit relay it should be right?
Cordially, Nathaniel _______________________________________________ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
On 09/01/2018 04:47 PM, Conrad Rockenhaus wrote:
I know this is an issue of semantics here, but when you say “Tor Exit in Turkey censoring access to various access to various websites” you’re kind of putting the onus on them directly instead of the repressive anti-free speech regime that they are operating the the exit under. Why not be more clear and direct with your language and state the “Tor Exit in Turkey that is being actively censored by it’s upstream” or the “Tor Exit that is being actively censored by an unknown third party” instead of putting the blame on them?
True. But however you say it, there's still censorship.
Furthermore, even western countries have limits to what you can access from those countries. As others have said - you can’t access torrent sites from the UK, heck, you can’t even access EncyclopediaDramatica (certain pages of it anyway) from Australia. Should we mark those exits as bad because they can’t access certain pages as well?
Damn, I hadn't considered that :( I guess that I had assumed such blocking was limited to consumer-level ISPs. Not uplinks in data centers. If that's actually the case, perhaps such censored relays should be in a separate category, and not enabled by default. Or as a configuration option, or an option in Tor browser, similar to the security slider. But I can see how that reduces anonymity. So maybe the best option is to publicize the problem, and remind users that they ought to try new circuits when they find stuff unreachable. Maybe also an indicator in Tor browser, showing the censorship level of the exit that they're using.
On Sep 1, 2018, at 4:56 PM, Nathaniel Suchy <me@lunorian.is> wrote:
Recently we've been discussing a Tor Exit in Turkey censoring access to various websites.
It's less to some err, disagreements on what should and should not be allowed. I've seen a few opinions: *) It grants an outside view at what Turkey censors *) It could push new tor users away
This leads me to question if it's okay for a Tor Exit to be on a censored network are the following scenarios now allowed? *) A Tor Exit behind a Corporate Network and Web Filter *) A Tor Exit behind a University Network and Web Filter Under the logic with the Turkey exit relay it should be right?
Cordially, Nathaniel _______________________________________________ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
_______________________________________________ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
On Sun, Sep 2, 2018 at 1:05 AM, Mirimir <mirimir@riseup.net> wrote:
Damn, I hadn't considered that :( I guess that I had assumed such blocking was limited to consumer-level ISPs. Not uplinks in data centers.
This is the case for the UK, yes (it's not actually even all consumer-level ISP's, mine for example does not conform to it). Can't speak for other countries.
On Sun, 2 Sep 2018 at 01:05, Mirimir <mirimir@riseup.net> wrote:
Maybe also an indicator in Tor browser, showing the censorship level of the exit that they're using.
Good idea, as previously said, different counties block/censor different things, so simply changing a circuit will get around this (for now). With reference to torrents in the UK, as Sam said, not all are blocked. Its basically a game of whack-a-mole with the courts. Every time the courts order ISP's to block a particular domain name (eg torrent.com) the site will simply change domain name (eg to different-torrent-name.com) until the courts order the ISP's to block it again a few months time. I am uncertain if, for example, someone were to set up a new ISP they would have to follow the previous court blocking orders or they would need to be "re-issued" to the new ISP. Thanks
participants (5)
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Conrad Rockenhaus -
Gary -
Mirimir -
Nathaniel Suchy -
Sam Pizzey