tor-talk@ has always been fairly off-topic and subject to overflow from the cypherpunks list, but lately it seems like an endless barrage of filter-evading nonsense. I'm filtering my inbox, but it doesn't seem to help much. I filtered for subject & body content, then people omitted specific names. I filtered out specific senders, then people made new accounts.
There seem to be less than ten people who never seem to be on-topic or moving any conversation forward. And indeed, many of these people are behaving the same way on other lists as well. Long-term, these people have been causing exponentially more distraction than any benefit their (rare) good points have made. While it's relatively easy for me to ignore, nearly 300 emails in two weeks would be hard to ignore for anyone who's just now subscribing to the list. And those 288 messages are filled to the brim with the most base tinfoil-hattery.
So with all that said, I would like to broach the subject of moderating tor-talk, or perhaps removing those few subscribers who always seem to be off-topic. Understandably, this is a controversial topic, but I think it's critical to bring the list back to its normal functions.
best, Griffin
* Griffin Boyce schrieb am 2016-06-20 um 20:14 Uhr:
So with all that said, I would like to broach the subject of moderating tor-talk, or perhaps removing those few subscribers who always seem to be off-topic. Understandably, this is a controversial topic, but I think it's critical to bring the list back to its normal functions.
Maybe we could start by sending a reminder to the mailing list what is on-topic here plus the announcement that we plan to moderate the list in case of ongoing off-topic talk. If after some periods (one week, two weeks?) nothing changes we send an announcement that tor-talk will be moderated from now on and change the settings.
Like described here URL:https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/org/meetings/2016WinterDevMeeting/Notes/TakeBackCommunityChannels all posts will be moderated by default and constructive people get white-listed.
What do you think?
Jens Kubieziel wrote:
Maybe we could start by sending a reminder to the mailing list what is on-topic here plus the announcement that we plan to moderate the list in case of ongoing off-topic talk. If after some periods (one week, two weeks?) nothing changes we send an announcement that tor-talk will be moderated from now on and change the settings.
That sounds like an ideal solution. This would let people know what is on-topic and give them a chance to take more off-topic discussions elsewhere. cc'ing atagar to get his thoughts.
~Griffin
Hi Griffin. Iirc Moritz mentioned that we might soon be ready to roll out tor-users@ (with moderators) as a replacement for tor-talk@. I'm more curious about a replacement than trying to clean up tor-talk@ - imho it's a lost cause.
That said, don't let me stand in the way if you want to take this on.
Cheers! -Damian
On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 3:08 PM, Griffin Boyce griffin@cryptolab.net wrote:
Jens Kubieziel wrote:
Maybe we could start by sending a reminder to the mailing list what is on-topic here plus the announcement that we plan to moderate the list in case of ongoing off-topic talk. If after some periods (one week, two weeks?) nothing changes we send an announcement that tor-talk will be moderated from now on and change the settings.
That sounds like an ideal solution. This would let people know what is on-topic and give them a chance to take more off-topic discussions elsewhere. cc'ing atagar to get his thoughts.
~Griffin
Damian Johnson wrote:
Hi Griffin. Iirc Moritz mentioned that we might soon be ready to roll out tor-users@ (with moderators) as a replacement for tor-talk@. I'm more curious about a replacement than trying to clean up tor-talk@ - imho it's a lost cause.
That said, don't let me stand in the way if you want to take this on.
I can appreciate that approach, but changing lists alone doesn't solve the core problem. People who want to be distracting will just sign up for the new list and be distracting there. But people who were interested in being on tor-talk for the on-topic discussions may not sign up for a new list.
My personal opinion is that we could save a lot of work by sending a reminder about on-topic discussions, kicking off a few people if they don't listen, then moderating posts for a couple of weeks if it's still not abating.
~Griffin
Gotcha. By all means don't let me get in the way of progress. Either approach works. I think everyone's in agreement that this will likely require list moderation, the question is just if we moderate tor-talk@ or make a new moderated list.
I suspect this would go more smoothly with a new list because the act of subscribing is opt-ing into the moderation rather than taking away posting rights of a once-open list. But either way this is a minor detail, and a decision for the boots on the ground doing the moderation. :)
On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 3:56 PM, Griffin Boyce griffin@cryptolab.net wrote:
Damian Johnson wrote:
Hi Griffin. Iirc Moritz mentioned that we might soon be ready to roll out tor-users@ (with moderators) as a replacement for tor-talk@. I'm more curious about a replacement than trying to clean up tor-talk@ - imho it's a lost cause.
That said, don't let me stand in the way if you want to take this on.
I can appreciate that approach, but changing lists alone doesn't solve the core problem. People who want to be distracting will just sign up for the new list and be distracting there. But people who were interested in being on tor-talk for the on-topic discussions may not sign up for a new list.
My personal opinion is that we could save a lot of work by sending a reminder about on-topic discussions, kicking off a few people if they don't listen, then moderating posts for a couple of weeks if it's still not abating.
~Griffin
Damian Johnson wrote:
Gotcha. By all means don't let me get in the way of progress. Either approach works. I think everyone's in agreement that this will likely require list moderation, the question is just if we moderate tor-talk@ or make a new moderated list.
I suspect this would go more smoothly with a new list because the act of subscribing is opt-ing into the moderation rather than taking away posting rights of a once-open list. But either way this is a minor detail, and a decision for the boots on the ground doing the moderation. :)
Well, I'm happy to be added to the moderation squad when some kind of moderation switch happens.
Do you want to be the one to send an on-topic reminder to the tor-talk list?
~Griffin
Well, I'm happy to be added to the moderation squad when some kind of moderation switch happens.
Great, glad to hear it! If you'd care to lead this effort I'm sure Moritz wouldn't mind. If not then hopefully he'll speak up to comment on when this ball will get rolling.
Do you want to be the one to send an on-topic reminder to the tor-talk list?
I don't. I see an on-topic reminder quickly spiraling into a headache of its own. My view is that we should just nuke the list once the moderators are ready but if this is an area you want to spend time then feel free.
Damian Johnson wrote:
Great, glad to hear it! If you'd care to lead this effort I'm sure Moritz wouldn't mind. If not then hopefully he'll speak up to comment on when this ball will get rolling.
I don't have any large opinions about how moderation should be handled (though whitelisting sounds like a reasonable solution), so I probably shouldn't be leading this effort.
I don't. I see an on-topic reminder quickly spiraling into a headache of its own. My view is that we should just nuke the list once the moderators are ready but if this is an area you want to spend time then feel free.
I sent a reminder email out. We'll see if things simmer down. Probably not, but hey it's worth a shot.
best, Griffin
IDK, on my end it looks a lot better. Maybe it's just the placebo effect ;-)
On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 11:48 AM, Damian Johnson < atagar@torproject.org [atagar@torproject.org] > wrote:
I sent a reminder email out. We'll see if things simmer down. Probably not, but hey it's worth a shot.
My inbox this morning seems to be telling me folks didn't listen. Oh well, thanks for trying! :P _______________________________________________ tor-project mailing list tor-project@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-project
IDK, on my end it looks a lot better. Maybe it's just the placebo effect ;-)
Honestly might just be me shaking my head at seeing a subject saying "Is Rape the same as Copyright?". You're quite possibly right that we could get a lot of mileage by removing the most disruptive individuals, though personally I still think just outright moderation will work better.
We all recognize the list is broken but never take any action. Trouble is that this is a timesink none of us are eager to have on our plate. If anyone wants to lead the charge in cleaning up our most visible and important list just say the word! More than happy to pull what levers I can to get ya what you need.
Damian Johnson wrote:
IDK, on my end it looks a lot better. Maybe it's just the placebo effect ;-)
Honestly might just be me shaking my head at seeing a subject saying "Is Rape the same as Copyright?". You're quite possibly right that we could get a lot of mileage by removing the most disruptive individuals, though personally I still think just outright moderation will work better.
That troll actually sent me a mea culpa email, which was pretty funny.
We all recognize the list is broken but never take any action. Trouble is that this is a timesink none of us are eager to have on our plate. If anyone wants to lead the charge in cleaning up our most visible and important list just say the word! More than happy to pull what levers I can to get ya what you need.
If given list management access, I'd eject a few notable off-topic members (juan.g71@gmail.com, afalex169@gmail.com, cecilia.tanaka@gmail.com, tor_talk@arcor.de) some recent off-topic members (dungeonmaster@sigaint.org, skywalker543@sigaint.org, thomas.hluchnik@netcologne.de), and off-topic announcement-only members (ja.talk@yandex.com, jacobappelbaum.net@yandex.com).
When I was still an admin on the 2600 FB group, we took a similar approach and were able to move from the list being a total trashfire to being a decent discussion board. But I have no problem using the banhammer.
~Griffin
If given list management access, I'd eject a few notable off-topic members (juan.g71@gmail.com, afalex169@gmail.com, cecilia.tanaka@gmail.com, tor_talk@arcor.de) some recent off-topic members (dungeonmaster@sigaint.org, skywalker543@sigaint.org, thomas.hluchnik@netcologne.de), and off-topic announcement-only members (ja.talk@yandex.com, jacobappelbaum.net@yandex.com).
When I was still an admin on the 2600 FB group, we took a similar approach and were able to move from the list being a total trashfire to being a decent discussion board. But I have no problem using the banhammer.
Sounds good. Jens, any objection to giving Griffin tor-talk@ list admin access?
* Damian Johnson schrieb am 2016-06-21 um 20:13 Uhr:
Sounds good. Jens, any objection to giving Griffin tor-talk@ list admin access?
Go, Griffin. :-)
Jens Kubieziel wrote:
- Damian Johnson schrieb:
Sounds good. Jens, any objection to giving Griffin tor-talk@ list admin access?
Go, Griffin. :-)
The previously-named subscribers have been removed. After Juan threatened to re-join the list, they were all added to the banned users list. I also sent them all an email to let them know.
---- To whom it may concern,
You have been removed from the tor-talk mailing list for persistent off-topic posts and I encourage you to spend your time elsewhere. Do not re-subscribe to the list.
best of luck, Griffin
After Juan threatened to re-join the list, they were all added to the
banned users list.
I'm going to miss Juan.
Maybe he has a blog.
On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 5:39 AM, Griffin Boyce griffin@cryptolab.net wrote:
Jens Kubieziel wrote:
- Damian Johnson schrieb:
Sounds good. Jens, any objection to giving Griffin tor-talk@ list admin access?
Go, Griffin. :-)
The previously-named subscribers have been removed. After Juan threatened to re-join the list, they were all added to the banned users list. I also sent them all an email to let them know.
To whom it may concern,
You have been removed from the tor-talk mailing list for persistent off-topic posts and I encourage you to spend your time elsewhere. Do not re-subscribe to the list.
best of luck, Griffin
tor-project mailing list tor-project@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-project
Virgil Griffith wrote:
I'm going to miss Juan.
Maybe he has a blog.
Or at least a Tumblr.
Also, in the interest of transparency, the first few posts from brand-new users is being held for moderation. Too many people are joining the list just to troll. :P
~Griffin
Also, in the interest of transparency, the first few posts from brand-new users is being held for moderation. Too many people are joining the list just to troll. :P
Ahh, so that's what happened. I was just puzzling over that. Thanks for the head's up. :)
Damian Johnson wrote:
Also, in the interest of transparency, the first few posts from brand-new users is being held for moderation. Too many people are joining the list just to troll. :P
Ahh, so that's what happened. I was just puzzling over that. Thanks for the head's up. :)
Yeah, sorry about not sending to the list beforehand. I figured that I'd have more than 60 seconds before the moderation queue got triggered. Twice, even. Fully expecting to have to be more responsive to alerts for some time.
On 06/21/2016 12:56 AM, Griffin Boyce wrote:
I can appreciate that approach, but changing lists alone doesn't solve the core problem. People who want to be distracting will just sign up for the new list and be distracting there.
No. The new list will have moderation, and will kick/moderate people who show bad behaviour.
It's much easier to introduce a new list than to enforce rules on a place where there were no clear rules before. Of course it would be nice to keep all the subscribers, but I think we can convince many of them to subscribe to the new list, and fade out the old.
There has been previous mail about this but almost nobody was interested. We're still looking for moderators for the new list!
There has been previous mail about this but almost nobody was interested. We're still looking for moderators for the new list!
Iirc Gunner expressed interest so you now have yourself, Griffin, and him. Is three enough to move forward? Yesterday a tor-talk@ member that's unhappy with the state of the list also offered to help with moderation though personally I don't know the person.
* Damian Johnson schrieb am 2016-06-21 um 17:06 Uhr:
There has been previous mail about this but almost nobody was interested. We're still looking for moderators for the new list!
Iirc Gunner expressed interest so you now have yourself, Griffin, and him. Is three enough to move forward? Yesterday a tor-talk@ member
I expressed interest in the past and am willing to help here.
I'm definitely still game!
On 06/21/2016 12:28 PM, Jens Kubieziel wrote:
- Damian Johnson schrieb am 2016-06-21 um 17:06 Uhr:
There has been previous mail about this but almost nobody was interested. We're still looking for moderators for the new list!
Iirc Gunner expressed interest so you now have yourself, Griffin, and him. Is three enough to move forward? Yesterday a tor-talk@ member
I expressed interest in the past and am willing to help here.
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