[IMPORTANT] How sad would you be if we shut down this mailing list?
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Dear person who is interested in Tor censorship events, how sad would you be if we shut down the tor-censorship-events@ mailing list? I'm asking, because I'm about to move the Metrics website to a new host, and I'd want to leave behind any unused parts while doing so. This list very much looks like the perfect candidate for not being moved. Here's why: - All mails sent to this list in August covered July 30, and yet nobody noticed. - A couple months back I changed how userstats are updated from daily to every three days, but I didn't adapt the script sending out these mails, which still only covers a single day, and yet nobody noticed. - The links contained in these emails have been broken since November 2014, and yet nobody noticed. Note that I understand the desire to be informed about automatically detected censorship of the Tor network. But this script and mailing list is not what we want, it just leaves us under the impression that we have a somewhat working solution. We don't. And maybe that even prevents people from building something better. Here's my plan: - If I hear a convincing reason why we should keep this mailing list in the next 72 hours (that would be Wednesday, August 12, 12:00 UTC), I'll move it to the new host and will even try to fix the bugs above. - If I don't hear such a reason, I'll kill the list with fire. Thoughts? (Just respond to this list, and I'll manually approve your posting, despite this list not being a discussion list.) All the best, Karsten -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJVx0DBAAoJEJD5dJfVqbCr43UH/jcytvnuNY4x6+iFSV7ggq3x 3SBB9dqY/ftkPOVrQ+oOsuweM5UVOfr2Brne0o2cjVSz0blsIYGk/iW60/J7jdWJ P1qZlh1qhpmZ+CjccTPT1hJJJhfo5HfWbcvHvYev4YV65/pzkdxAN9FxDJmkegFS +fnvUWY/hqxOCHBMFoAeOKtFRp0EX1LLpumi0HDP3PizhadmchTf18EgXC29SF1a v0XJhyChLNz8Q5MmtzyKovR8uZ3xwv5RMbmg6CZaU84z7Jh9moO8cDDgL0fRUheS 3KXQ9e1S7Lv93XM0nFj3jOEXFSrXiHyhPWNkDMtPofqXOI6C+Q3ih5o7QY5ApGs= =f2AD -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Karsten Loesing <karsten@torproject.org> wrote Sun, 9 Aug 2015 14:00:01 +0200: | Thoughts? (Just respond to this list, and I'll manually approve your | posting, despite this list not being a discussion list.) I'm fine losing it. Wouldn't mind learning more about how to get similar info from data hosted at metrics. Do you have any good starting pointers? Thanks!
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi Linus, On 10/08/15 00:49, Linus Nordberg wrote:
Karsten Loesing <karsten@torproject.org> wrote Sun, 9 Aug 2015 14:00:01 +0200:
| Thoughts? (Just respond to this list, and I'll manually approve your | posting, despite this list not being a discussion list.)
I'm fine losing it.
Thanks for the feedback.
Wouldn't mind learning more about how to get similar info from data hosted at metrics. Do you have any good starting pointers?
I'm not entirely clear what similar data you have in mind, but the best starting point I can give you is the search form on the Metrics start page: https://metrics.torproject.org/. For example, if you care about all raw data provided by Metrics, only select "Data" as type and be sure to also select "Advanced" as level (because none of these are easily understandable for random visitors). I have to admit that you wouldn't be able to find the tor-censorship-events@ mailing list on Metrics, because I forgot to mention it. In the unlikely case that we keep it, I'll add a link and description for it. There are no similar mailing lists for anything Metrics-related.
Thanks!
Thank you! All the best, Karsten -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJVyFRRAAoJEJD5dJfVqbCrFlwH/0LZLPV4sZwV4CVyBKcQKuWk tu0mRGcmd7FeTlKYUsKML8rTXz9s5wjCOx0BXK6tHIkZOomqDySzm36GYZirN0MV T9uK/tp4CieMHCfixKOj9XErvKyRsw8K6Iiqt0DgilUAGOYjr2aFkZdDRjDeKwbk sX2eViknobUuY5JlbtgVuVLMU1X8xI/2BHT6Pl00CSC8yriLEjpX39ntLRx/S79K f+AMXsC2A+z3pqnC2pcCG7f+vgKNmJE2In/quC6m8wcujTEvwd1+qVL5+WI+8Fe9 LHlPqtnWgBlxgqTXr6QlNZNNWga+ajQpbCLtTJdUveAuhsMhnqtPUFHZM391G7g= =bnsE -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
I'd be pretty sad but I guess I'm in the minority? This is a great way to keep track of the fluctuations of Tor usage around the world. When there's a big event going on, eg protests and censorship in Turkey, it's really phenomenal to be able to turn here and get some numbers on how people are responding. On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 8:00 AM, Karsten Loesing <karsten@torproject.org> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Dear person who is interested in Tor censorship events,
how sad would you be if we shut down the tor-censorship-events@ mailing list?
I'm asking, because I'm about to move the Metrics website to a new host, and I'd want to leave behind any unused parts while doing so. This list very much looks like the perfect candidate for not being moved.
Here's why:
- All mails sent to this list in August covered July 30, and yet nobody noticed.
- A couple months back I changed how userstats are updated from daily to every three days, but I didn't adapt the script sending out these mails, which still only covers a single day, and yet nobody noticed.
- The links contained in these emails have been broken since November 2014, and yet nobody noticed.
Note that I understand the desire to be informed about automatically detected censorship of the Tor network. But this script and mailing list is not what we want, it just leaves us under the impression that we have a somewhat working solution. We don't. And maybe that even prevents people from building something better.
Here's my plan:
- If I hear a convincing reason why we should keep this mailing list in the next 72 hours (that would be Wednesday, August 12, 12:00 UTC), I'll move it to the new host and will even try to fix the bugs above.
- If I don't hear such a reason, I'll kill the list with fire.
Thoughts? (Just respond to this list, and I'll manually approve your posting, despite this list not being a discussion list.)
All the best, Karsten -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 11/08/15 16:12, Patrick wrote:
I'd be pretty sad but I guess I'm in the minority?
This is a great way to keep track of the fluctuations of Tor usage around the world. When there's a big event going on, eg protests and censorship in Turkey, it's really phenomenal to be able to turn here and get some numbers on how people are responding.
Noted. This is not exactly about finding out whether the majority of people want to keep the list or get rid of it. It's about finding out whether there are important reasons for keeping it. I'll summarize the feedback I received on and off list tomorrow. Thanks for your response! All the best, Karsten
On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 8:00 AM, Karsten Loesing <karsten@torproject.org> wrote:
Dear person who is interested in Tor censorship events,
how sad would you be if we shut down the tor-censorship-events@ mailing list?
I'm asking, because I'm about to move the Metrics website to a new host, and I'd want to leave behind any unused parts while doing so. This list very much looks like the perfect candidate for not being moved.
Here's why:
- All mails sent to this list in August covered July 30, and yet nobody noticed.
- A couple months back I changed how userstats are updated from daily to every three days, but I didn't adapt the script sending out these mails, which still only covers a single day, and yet nobody noticed.
- The links contained in these emails have been broken since November 2014, and yet nobody noticed.
Note that I understand the desire to be informed about automatically detected censorship of the Tor network. But this script and mailing list is not what we want, it just leaves us under the impression that we have a somewhat working solution. We don't. And maybe that even prevents people from building something better.
Here's my plan:
- If I hear a convincing reason why we should keep this mailing list in the next 72 hours (that would be Wednesday, August 12, 12:00 UTC), I'll move it to the new host and will even try to fix the bugs above.
- If I don't hear such a reason, I'll kill the list with fire.
Thoughts? (Just respond to this list, and I'll manually approve your posting, despite this list not being a discussion list.)
All the best, Karsten
_______________________________________________ tor-censorship-events mailing list tor-censorship-events@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-censorship-events
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 09/08/15 14:00, Karsten Loesing wrote:
how sad would you be if we shut down the tor-censorship-events@ mailing list?
So, I have heard back from Linus and Patrick on this list, with Linus not minding losing the list and Patrick being pretty sad about losing it. I also received two more replies off list whose anonymous authors were both in favor of keeping the list. However, I didn't hear how the current version of the script would serve an important purpose that would justify migrating it. All people would want to have a working script and either this mailing list or some other notification mechanism (like a Twitter feed). That's good to know for someone who wants to write a better script. But it's insufficient as a reason to keep the current, broken script. As a result, I'll stop the script sending daily mails now. But I'm not going to delete this mailing list, so that a future version of the script that doesn't have the shortcomings of the current script can use this mailing list to reach people who care about Tor censorship events. (If you want to respond to this posting, please respond to this list, and I'll manually approve your posting, despite this list not being a discussion list.) All the best, Karsten -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJVy0qTAAoJEJD5dJfVqbCrJAkIAJfn9eURbQ52xzto1BUwc6V6 /G+Jn6HMd+UXoCS83+TvehvScHM3Y0NMRXLGf8iU0/R75d47W1Vmljoff9rpU5eV s9fAjwdJOedM1AK6ukRt/+7noffii2rGrNFZXXhxctjMCEOQnbgrkDqAh4AYue/+ 6DL3cO7D/rAxAHoT8HDrByCQRt6u3rkFhx6ewKdKdTZWweAYgq6lLKS6A+7uizZo FeYQvp2UoWBC/gFa4brQs2vRMLAUDlMVvjGpzKoCwDMiPzkoYGGe1FwhXZ9c9kVy zy4kow+RaEzfdCVuhMno9Ug+nHAha3Bo3TGyzrpe+6ywvJsVvxV2OISs2ArhXIA= =4NMF -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Karsten Loesing <karsten@torproject.org> wrote Wed, 12 Aug 2015 15:30:59 +0200: | As a result, I'll stop the script sending daily mails now. But I'm | not going to delete this mailing list, so that a future version of the | script that doesn't have the shortcomings of the current script can | use this mailing list to reach people who care about Tor censorship | events. Thanks for caring about this and keeping the list open in order for those willing to put in the effort to produce good content to have an outlet. Also, thanks in advance to those who are willing to work on this important issue.
participants (3)
-
Karsten Loesing -
Linus Nordberg -
Patrick