[tor-teachers] tor-teachers - politics

Alison Macrina macrina at riseup.net
Tue Oct 20 18:03:21 UTC 2015


Just a quick note that it's helpful if digest readers change the subject
line so that we know what they're responding to.

kbaegis:
> Okay Alison.  Fine.  I really wasn't looking to pick a fight, so I'm not
> going to address weird arguments about excluding Eric Schmidt from TOR. 
> When hyperbole and extreme arguments rule, you have a tyranny of whoever
> can produce the most extreme rhetoric. It's sophistry at its finest. 
> 
> I'll message you directly. 
> 
> Thanks,
> Stephen

I'm not trying to pick a fight, nor was I being hyperbolic. I named
those adversaries because they are the ones we make space for when we
say that the conversation should not be political. My argument was not
fallacious. I think we simply disagree.

I don't want this conversation to become hostile, so perhaps we should
conclude it. I think it's fair to say that folks on this list do not
want to exclude politics from the discussion.

Alison


> On 10/20/15 10:58 AM, tor-teachers-request at lists.torproject.org wrote:
>> Send tor-teachers mailing list submissions to
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>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>    1. Re: tor teachers -- politics (Alison Macrina)
>>    2. Re: Extra Presentations to add to Wiki (sajolida)
>>    3. Re: tor-teachers Digest, Vol 2, Issue 13 (kbaegis)
>>    4. Re: tor teachers -- politics (Hugo Maxwell Connery)
>>    5. Re: tor-teachers - politics (Alison Macrina)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 14:31:15 +0000
>> From: Alison Macrina <macrina at riseup.net>
>> To: tor-teachers at lists.torproject.org
>> Subject: Re: [tor-teachers] tor teachers -- politics
>> Message-ID: <56265033.6040800 at riseup.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>>
>> Nathan of Guardian:
>>>
>>> On Tue, Oct 20, 2015, at 06:55 AM, Jacob Appelbaum wrote:
>>>> Dear Nathan and everyone,
>>>>
>>>>> I think as a community of teachers and trainers, we'll have to all be
>>>>> open to the fact that we are coming from very different backgrounds, and
>>>>> working with very different communities. I don't think anyone is
>>>>> actively trying to inject their own personal "P" politics into the list,
>>>>> but I am sure many kinds of politics will come up, as an aspect of
>>>>> empowering users who are working against a system that seeks to
>>>>> disempower them.
>>>> I'm totally on board with everything you've said excluding the very
>>>> last bit here. Forgive me for going down the rabbit hole with you.
>>>>
>>>> We're not working against any system directly. Our efforts are not
>>>> mere pushback. Sure, we hope to stop surveillance and censorship
>>>> systems from harming Tor users. The crux here isn't just about
>>>> protesting "the man" or a specific political party or something along
>>>> those lines. Rather we've built an alternative and we're teaching
>>>> people how to utilize it in their lives.
>>>>
>>>> The result is of course political and there is a question of how the
>>>> new system embodies certain political ideals. In our new system we
>>>> build on the radical politics of IP networking, we have a right to
>>>> form and hold ideas without interference, we have a right to free
>>>> speech and a right to read, we have anonymity of various kinds. We
>>>> have this as an intentional outcome of strong cryptography where
>>>> everyone is able to run or to use this new infrastructure. That isn't
>>>> a matter of just being against a system, it is about iterating and
>>>> changing the current systems, while also providing alternatives that
>>>> coexist and which are capable of replacing older, less autonomy
>>>> respecting, systems which are oppressive.
>>>>
>>> Here, here!
>>>
>> Thanks for this, Nathan and Jake.
>>
>> Alison
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 11:54:18 +0000
>> From: sajolida <sajolida at pimienta.org>
>> To: "List to be used by Tor teachers and trainers to build a
>> 	community, circulate training materials and get feedback"
>> 	<tor-teachers at lists.torproject.org>
>> Subject: Re: [tor-teachers] Extra Presentations to add to Wiki
>> Message-ID: <56262B6A.5040204 at pimienta.org>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>>
>> Dylan Cooper:
>>> Figured I'd move this to a new thread to see if anyone is willing to divide
>>> some of the leftover presentations Alison referenced earlier[1] that have
>>> been accumulated over time.
>> Hi,
>>
>> First of all, let my introduce myself as I've been lurking on this list
>> for a while but this is my first post. I'm working on Tails where I do
>> most of the technical writing and a bit of UX too.
>>
>> I'm not exactly sure why you're mentioning this list of presentations
>> from Tor but I thought I'd point you to the repository we have for our
>> presentations about Tails if that can be useful:
>>
>>   - Online artifacts (source and HTML):
>>     https://tails.boum.org/contribute/how/promote/material/slides/
>>
>>   - Git repository:
>>     https://git-tails.immerda.ch/promotion-material/
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 10:10:27 -0500
>> From: kbaegis <kbaegis at gmail.com>
>> To: tor-teachers at lists.torproject.org
>> Subject: Re: [tor-teachers] tor-teachers Digest, Vol 2, Issue 13
>> Message-ID: <56265963.7090109 at gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>>
>> Thanks for asking what I think Jacob,
>>
>> My personal stance is that when we start including political discussion
>> we implicitly begin excluding people.  Rational people, given the same
>> evidence, can reach the same conclusion.  Opinions simply don't work
>> this way.  You can't cite a reference, or make argument based on agreed
>> upon fact.  Well informed opinions, while based upon fact, imply a
>> certain attachment to the idea. 
>>
>> Now let's play with an example:
>>
>> "The founders wanted a democracy."
>>
>> I think this is faulty decorum.  Has the above statement advanced the
>> discussion in any meaningful way?  If there's a disagreement, is there
>> any particular idea contained above that I can ask for a reference to
>> formally refute or am I stuck arguing about the difference between a
>> republic, democracy- and even more basically if a group of politicians
>> can agree on /anything./  It's easy to state opinions which require no
>> rigor or substance. 
>>
>> I think that it's chiefly about exclusion.  It seems sensible to me that
>> TOR benefits from any member- not simply those who subscribe to a
>> certain ideology.  You absolutely need a dominant culture in the
>> development community.  That's sensible.  I would argue that this is
>> counterproductive on the teaching front. 
>>
>> What does everyone else think? 
>>
>> All of this aside, I was hoping that we could create some coordination
>> for classes.  Again, I already fly around the country teaching.  I'd
>> love to be able to teach TOR as well.  I just need students. 
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Stephen
>>
>> On 10/20/15 7:00 AM, tor-teachers-request at lists.torproject.org wrote:
>>> I feel that if we don't understand the principles behind Tor, we may
>>> have trouble teaching and evaluating related systems. The principles
>>> behind Tor which are very political in most contexts are why we're
>>> never going to see a backdoor inserted. Backdoor free crypto is a very
>>> serious political stance in my view.
>>>
>>> I'd still like to know what the original poster meant by political in
>>> the context of this mailing list. It seems that we should be open and
>>> willing to hear this definition and to use it as a starting point.
>>> there may be a set of people who consider themselves "non-political"
>>> when teaching Tor and I'd like to ensure that we don't exclude them.
>>> First though, I'd really like to hear what that means from someone who
>>> feels this describes their views or desires for this list.
>>>
>>> All the best,
>>> Jacob
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 15:17:35 +0000
>> From: Hugo Maxwell Connery <hmco at env.dtu.dk>
>> To: "tor-teachers at lists.torproject.org"
>> 	<tor-teachers at lists.torproject.org>
>> Subject: Re: [tor-teachers] tor teachers -- politics
>> Message-ID:
>> 	<6CB05D82CE245B4083BBF3B97E2ED47008F91540 at ait-pex01mbx01.win.dtu.dk>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I support the numerous points that Jacob has made, and 
>> reiterate the call for the original poster to expand on what
>> she or he meant by excluding politics from the list such that
>> we can better understand the motivations which may be well 
>> considered and thoughtful.
>>
>> I posit that most people who use tor eventually understand that 
>> there is a political aspect to their use of tor.
>>
>> One may start using tor because it provides technical capabilities
>> which one requires (censorship circumvention, anonymity etc.).
>> I suggest that these persons will likely either directly understand
>> the political implications of their use of tor, or become aware of this
>> soon enough.
>>
>> There are other persons, myself included, who use tor *specifically*
>> as a political statement.  I wish to support others in their right to read
>> anonymously by joining the "anonymity set", and I wish to support 
>> those who *need* anonymity due to oppressive political environments.  
>> I suffer none of these oppressions, but by my actions express my solidarity 
>> with those who do.  (And I believe that the watchers do not have a right
>> to know what I read -- another political statement).
>>
>> I believe that it is important to understand the political background 
>> so that, with this knowledge, one can tailor a presentation to the 
>> audience.  Roger Dingledine made a great presentation (29C3 ?)
>> in which he clearly describes the differing approach that he takes
>> when talking about tor depending on the audience: students,
>> activists, law enforcement, censors etc.
>>
>>> I feel that if we don't understand the principles behind Tor,
>>> we may have trouble teaching and evaluating related systems. The
>>> principles behind Tor which are very political in most contexts
>>> are why we're never going to see a backdoor inserted. Backdoor
>>> free crypto is a very serious political stance in my view.
>> I agree, it is a serious political stance, and am rather upset that it is
>> at the present time.
>>
>>> I'd still like to know what the original poster meant by
>>> political in the context of this mailing list. It seems that
>>> we should be open and willing to hear this definition and to
>>> use it as a starting point.  there may be a set of people who
>>> consider themselves "non-political" when teaching Tor and I'd
>>> like to ensure that we don't exclude them.  First though, I'd
>>> really like to hear what that means from someone who feels this
>>> describes their views or desires for this list.
>>>
>>> All the best,
>>> Jacob
>> Regards,  Hugo
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 15:58:21 +0000
>> From: Alison Macrina <macrina at riseup.net>
>> To: tor-teachers at lists.torproject.org
>> Subject: Re: [tor-teachers] tor-teachers - politics
>> Message-ID: <5626649D.60702 at riseup.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>>
>> kbaegis:
>>> Thanks for asking what I think Jacob,
>>>
>>> My personal stance is that when we start including political discussion
>>> we implicitly begin excluding people.  Rational people, given the same
>>> evidence, can reach the same conclusion.  Opinions simply don't work
>>> this way.  You can't cite a reference, or make argument based on agreed
>>> upon fact.  Well informed opinions, while based upon fact, imply a
>>> certain attachment to the idea. 
>>>
>>> Now let's play with an example:
>>>
>>> "The founders wanted a democracy."
>>>
>>> I think this is faulty decorum.  Has the above statement advanced the
>>> discussion in any meaningful way?  If there's a disagreement, is there
>>> any particular idea contained above that I can ask for a reference to
>>> formally refute or am I stuck arguing about the difference between a
>>> republic, democracy- and even more basically if a group of politicians
>>> can agree on /anything./  It's easy to state opinions which require no
>>> rigor or substance. 
>> I'm having a hard time understanding your argument, and I totally
>> disagree with the last assertion. The conversation that's already
>> happened on this thread shows that the political opinions shared are
>> hardly without rigor or substance. Personally, my rigorous political
>> praxis is the very thing that led me to Tor in the first place.
>>
>> Who are you worried about excluding? The spies? The police? The ISPs?
>> The advertisers? Eric Schmidt? Let them be excluded. Individuals who
>> have political disagreements with other individuals on this list will
>> not be rejected.
>>
>>> I think that it's chiefly about exclusion.  It seems sensible to me that
>>> TOR benefits from any member- not simply those who subscribe to a
>>> certain ideology.  You absolutely need a dominant culture in the
>>> development community.  That's sensible.  I would argue that this is
>>> counterproductive on the teaching front.
>> What certain ideology is being espoused here? The people I've met within
>> the Tor community have pretty widely varying political beliefs. I think
>> I can reasonably say that what we *do* agree on is that the work itself
>> is political.
>>
>> My full-time work is teaching privacy-enhancing technologies, mostly
>> across the US. When I teach, I make it clear what is politically at
>> stake -- that is, the internet that we all depend on is increasingly
>> controlled by a handful of intelligence agencies and giant
>> multi-national corporations, and this threatens many of our basic human
>> rights. And for marginalized people, this is more than just a nuisance
>> -- it's a matter of life and death. This is fundamentally about power
>> and control vs autonomy. I don't know how to make an argument for Tor
>> that excludes that, nor would I want to; it feels equivalent to someone
>> saying "let's do something about climate collapse, but not make it
>> political".
>>
>> Echoing what Kenneth said, I am personally wary of any argument for
>> political neutrality. There is no such thing as 'apolitical'. As Desmond
>> Tutu famously said, "If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you
>> have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on
>> the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not
>> appreciate your neutrality."
>>
>>
>>> What does everyone else think? 
>>>
>>> All of this aside, I was hoping that we could create some coordination
>>> for classes.  Again, I already fly around the country teaching.  I'd
>>> love to be able to teach TOR as well.  I just need students. 
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Stephen
>> I responded to this inline in your earlier message. Which country are
>> you flying around in? What are you already teaching? Where are you
>> teaching? What strategies have you already tried in reaching folks who
>> are interested in Tor?
>>
>> Alison
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Subject: Digest Footer
>>
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> End of tor-teachers Digest, Vol 2, Issue 14
>> *******************************************
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