[tor-talk] is it me or did tor talk get really quiet?

[Joe Btfsplk]

Thanks Moritz.  Yes, the reply was helpful.  Comments / follow-up 
inserted below.

On 9/28/2016 3:01 AM, Moritz Bartl wrote:
>> Is tor-project list not for fairly advanced users, or bug filers, or
>> those giving more to the community than just asking questions (but never
>> contribute useful input)?  Or is it only for devs or people providing
>> highly technical input (e.g., providing code suggestions or highly
>> technical bug work arounds, etc.)?
> So, one thing, and the most important one, is that _tor-project is for
> non-technical discussions "about the Tor Project_". Which can be a lot of
> things, but it should not be technical discussions (tor-dev), relay
> operation discussions (tor-relays), onion service stuff (tor-onions),
> but also _not_ anything else _related to Tor the software_, but Tor the
> project. Which basically means the website, organizational stuff, etc etc.
Your comments mostly follow what I assumed.  But, seems to leave even 
advanced users abandoned on timely Tor / Tor Browser & related software 
tech support.  I get that "tor-project" is intended to discuss  project 
related issues.
The ideal scenario may be for quality contributors to return to 
tor-talk.  They may not come back to the same unmoderated list.

It's not happening, now.  As you said, no one can be forced.  If 
tor-talk remains unmoderated, the ranting will likely continue. *"If 
nothing changes, nothing changes."*  Same is true for most unmoderated 
forums or lists I've briefly viewed - they're usually a free-for-all.  
Something about hiding behind computers...

This leaves 2 questions.  1) Where is the real technical support for Tor 
/ Tor Browser & network now?  The questions & problems didn't disappear.

2) If tor-talk is unmoderated / unstaffed, doesn't that leave users in a 
bind?
Tor-talk exists, but isn't providing consistent support. Apparently, 
being unmoderated drives away technical users, but allows long rants.

For a *technical support list,* why not moderate tor-talk?  To keep 
peace, but also provide qualified support?  There's nothing preventing 
making changes.
If a few just want to insult, they could start their own "Tor Sucks" list.
I know of very few developer run forums allowing endless rants or 
pointless, crude comments.

_Polite, sincere_ suggestions for features or policies changes are often 
necessary.  Many forums allow that.  I've made polite, critical 
suggestions on many forums, that lead to change - though sometimes 
initially got criticism.  A few got snarky, initial comments from the 
devs, until the reasoning was clarified or they thought it over.  Then 
some showed up on change lists.   Very different from ranting.

AFAIK, there are very few major softwares w/o _moderated_, active forums 
or lists.  Usually with mods' or official reps' technical input, as needed.
Otherwise, users are on their own.  With Tor, lives or freedom could be 
at stake.   It's unimaginable that Mozilla wouldn't have actively 
moderated, staffed support forums for each product.
Now, Tor users might get better support on Mozillazine, if mods allowed 
the question.  There may be more advanced Tor users on Mozilla / 
Mozillazine forums than on tor-talk.

It seems that's what's happened to Tor users.  For most software or 
hardware, if users can't get timely support, the user base may decline.
Even one man, open source projects often have active, moderated tech 
support forums.
Thanks.

>
> The archive and subscription is public, so everyone can have a look at
> what has been discussed there so far. There is a lot of overlap with
> things that used to be covered on tor-talk and still are, and the
> distinction is not clear at all. But, on the other hand, going through
> the archives you can probably identify a lot of things that are
> "accepted" on tor-talk that don't fit the range of topics covered on
> tor-project (-- and not the other way round).
>
>> Is tor-talk now for the most basic beginner questions / answer /
>> discussion?  If still for technical issues and fairly technical people
>> rarely visit it, there may be mostly questions & few answers.  Is this
>> partly because on tor-talk, numerous times that unmoderated discussions
>> strayed from Tor issues?
> Not only partly, but mostly. :( A lot of people just didn't want to cope
> with the amount of off-topic threads, nonconstructive endless debates
> and other violations of netiquette that happened on tor-talk. tor-talk
> degenerated quite a bit over time, and due to the libertarian nature of
> a lot of people nobody stepped up and intervened until only a short
> while ago. Users of tor-talk cannot be fully blamed because for a long
> time there were no clear guidelines on what is acceptable behavior and
> topics on it (which there still aren't) and no moderation. Sane people
> just gave up and moved to a moderated list, which is tor-project.
>
> Everyone, especially the active Tor contributors, want tor-talk to
> become as useful again as it has been a long time ago, but only very few
> of them are remaining as subscribers, and less than a handful are
> reading or writing on it. If we manage somehow to get this back to a
> list with meaningful discussions and content, other Tor contributors
> will come back, but the ball is in our hands; we can't "demand" that
> they come back to a list full of crap, given the desire for effective
> and efficient collaboration.
>
> There is no clear policy for tor-project@, and everyone acknowledges
> that "actively contributing to Tor" can mean a lot of different things.
> Maybe a good approach is that if you feel like you have something
> constructive to add to a thread, and are capable of properly quoting
> relevant parts of an email and your mail client is able to keep
> threading intact, feel free to reply and the chances of the mail and
> eventually your address being accepted by one of the moderators is
> pretty high. It is not meant to exclude anyone, but sometimes it _is_
> better to have a noise-free channel for only those that actively follow
> a certain topic or discussion, and not mixing active work with
> education. The educational side is important, and is in many respects
> covered by it having a public archive. If you feel you have a
> contribution to make, but don't feel "authorized" to directly post to
> tor-project, and you don't want to annoy all the "professionals", you
> can also always quote from tor-project and simply post your comment to
> tor-talk.
>
> Does this help?