[tor-talk] Operating system updates / software installation behind Tor Transparent Proxy
rransom.8774 at gmail.com
Fri Mar 2 06:16:19 UTC 2012
On 2012-03-01, proper proper <proper at secure-mail.biz> wrote:
> I was told, to ask this question here. 
> Tor's transparent proxy feature is at the moment a bit complicated to take
> advantage off and therefore unpopular. That might change in the future,
> because a) documentation improves ; b) in the future (depending on the
> outcome of this bug) there might be per-configured, ready-to-use packages;
> c) you discussed to give TorRouter such a feature #3453  as well.
Jacob Appelbaum is the one that wanted a transparent-proxy client
feature in the ‘Torouter’ (and enabled by default for an unsecured
wireless network). He gave at least three reasons for it:
* It would allow/encourage people who buy the ‘Torouter’ (or whatever
name it would have ended up with) to provide a public wireless
access point, even if their ISP would not permit them to do so or
would punish them for their neighbors' misbehaviour. (This reason
was not met with enthusiasm.)
* It would allow people who own a Torouter and some other
special-purpose device which cannot run a Tor client itself (he gave
the Chromebook as an example) to route their traffic through Tor.
* It would protect people who own a Torouter and route their traffic
through it against traffic logging by their ISP.
None of these uses are able or intended to anonymize user traffic, but
the latter two do justify the existence of a transparent-proxy client
> You ask the user not to use Bittorrent over Tor, as the network can not
> handle the load.
BitTorrent clients ‘seed’ over Tor, too. That eats rather more
bandwidth than just downloading a file over Tor.
But it's not just bandwidth load. BitTorrent clients open many TCP
connections, and frequently close them to switch to another
destination; the open TCP connections chew up TCP port numbers on your
exit node, and switching to new TCP connections will spread the
traffic load over many Tor circuits, so you'll break what little
rate-limiting the Tor network can impose *and* hose more relays and
exits with traffic and TCP connections.
And the jerks who use Tor for copyright-infringing torrent traffic (or
even just to connect to the tracker for a copyright-infringing
torrent) get their exit nodes' hosting providers flooded by
fake-DMCA-notice spambots. That can get exit nodes shut down, thereby
reducing the Tor network's capacity significantly.
> What about operating system updates behind a Transparent Tor Proxy? The same
> goes for the installation of legitimate software. No warez. "apt-get install
GPG sucks, so apt sucks too.
apt-get has the decency to only download over a small number of
parallel connections, and not upload, so it shouldn't eat as much
bandwidth as BitTorrent.
I'm more worried about the risks to user anonymity. It sucks to be
the user reading about some sensitive subject when your apt cron job
decides to poke every package source you install from. “Oh, that guy
who keeps reading about Foozer's Disease must be in the
Antarctica/McMurdo time zone!”
> The transparent proxy feature is great, it offers to reduce the risk of
> leaks and offers an anonymous torified operating system. Operating system
> updates behind Tor are a dilemma. It's several hundred of megabytes.
It's probably not anonymous.
Tor's goal is to provide unlinkability between the source of a
connection and its destination. Tor Browser Bundle and Tails aim to
provide unlinkability at destinations between connections from a
single source. Anonymity requires the latter property.
Of course, if you want to link your connections together, you
certainly can -- I log into GMail over Tor using a username and
password linked to my real name and to a location where I live. I'm
not anonymous, nor even pseudonymous, but Tor still prevents GMail
from determining my current location.
An operating-system installation which was set up without Tor, then
stuck behind a Tor transparent proxy, receives location privacy from
Tor. If the person who set up that system was careful to turn off all
the automatic network operations that could otherwise make a system's
traffic identifiable, the system could even be anonymous. You aren't
likely to get there from a Debian or FreeBSD system without serious
effort. I don't think it's possible at all with Windows.
> Once users have an anonymous torified operating system, they use
> "apt-get upgrade", they won't bother with offline updates, as they
> are complicated and possible leaks (creates signature).
‘apt-get upgrade’ should be fairly well-behaved for a bulk-download
client. Sucks that ‘apt-get upgrade’ tells your exit node what Debian
mirror you installed from and what updates you want to install. Sucks
that the apt cron job told the exit node that you were reading about
an embarassing medical condition through what Debian mirror you
installed from and what time zone your VM is set for.
Anonymity is hard! Let's do crypto.
> So what do you suppose to do with the Transparent Proxy feature? How do you
> want to solve the operating system update dilemma? Can the Tor network
> handle the load?
> Resolutions possible:
> a) Propose a solution.
(That sounds like politician-speak.)
Use Tor 0.2.3.x-alpha, give the user 10 or more SocksPorts and 10 or
more DNSPorts to point things which really need to be anonymous at,
and no TransPort.
In the VM you're trying to ‘anonymize’, run 10 or more
transparent-proxy-through-SOCKS stubs (one for each user ID in which
you run a non-SOCKS-friendly application that you want to
‘anonymize’), and set up iptables rules.
> b) Leave it complicated, a nice addon for power users only.
Using a SocksPort safely is complicated. If you couldn't bother to
SOCKSify an application's source code properly, did you audit it for
all the possible information leaks that could nuke what little
anonymity you had left after the cron jobs?
> c) Encourage people to extensively use it.
Let's not. It's bad enough that the GlobaLeaks clowns are telling
people to point a Windows application SOCKSifier at their feet and
pull the trigger.
> d) Leave the situation as it is. Tell me, not to release a easy
> per-configured package for an anonymous torified operating system.
You can prevent a system from making non-Torified connections without
having to mash all of its traffic into the same Tor ‘identity’ with a
single transparent proxy.
> e) Remove the TransPort feature, make it even more complicated to use. So we
> have to use transsocks again if we really want.
Sounds like a good piece to split into a separate program, but
splitting Tor's link protocols into separate processes is more
> f) Propose more, better solutions.
(That sounds like politician-speak, too.)
I'm all for auditing more applications, and then SOCKSifying them
properly, so no one will need a transparent proxy.
> rransomsaid :
>> Operating system updates over Tor are the main reason that
>> transparent proxying is not recommended -- automatic update
>> installers are likely to leak information about the software they
>> are trying to update, whether due to malicious design or due to
>> lack of consideration for users' location privacy.
> proper: This is the reason why we want to make them over Tor. Those
> information would stay anonymous. The reason not to do them over Tor is the
> network load as described above.
No. See above, and see my reply to Andrew's message.
> rransom said :
>> Also, this is not a ‘defect’, ‘critical’, or an issue to be addressed by
>> changing ‘Tor Client’. Try tor-talk or IRC.
> proper: I think it is. Solution e) would be handled by Tor
That ticket was a user support question, and did not belong in Trac.
It was not a ticket about removing Tor's built-in transparent proxy
support (or splitting it into a separate process). (I think it's too
early to file such a ticket.)
> If someone were to promote an easy-to-use per-configured
> anonymous torified operating system, this could (I don't know,
> that's why I ask here.) overload the network. This someone could be
> me. I won't do it if you tell me not to do it, because I don't want
> to kill the network I use. And someone else is probable not up to
> it. The demand for such as thing is there, but no one started
> working on it for years.
Most of the people who were ‘up to it’ considered other tasks more
important than developing an easy-to-misuse transparent proxy kit,
and/or did not consider themselves qualified to make a
transparent-proxied system (other than possibly Tails) ‘anonymous’.
(I no longer think I'm capable of setting up an anonymous Debian
system using a transparent proxy. Fortunately, I never got around to
that back when I did think I was capable of it.)
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