Mitar mmitar at
Fri Jan 14 01:27:23 UTC 2011


On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 3:01 AM, Roger Dingledine <arma at> wrote:
> This is related to the "if you remove Tor from the world, you're not
> really reducing the ability of bad guys to be anonymous on the Internet"
> idea.

This could be then analog argument as saying that if you remove one
weapon factory from the world, that there would be no difference? But
one after another and there will be.

I cannot buy an argument saying that because situation is bad there
should be no small improvements where there could be.

> various other techniques people have developed over the years to deal with abuse.

Then tell me which techniques have we developed which prevent
pedophiles to use hidden Tor services? Which techniques have we
developed which prevent somebody to blackmail somebody else over Tor
network and stay anonymous? Which techniques have we developed which
can help found out which are other people in terrorist group and trace
their communication, once we discover they use Tor?

> It depends where your jerks are coming from. If your jerks are all obeying
> every law and showing up from their static non-natted IP address, then
> yes, routing address is definitely related to identity. But if your
> jerks have ever noticed this doesn't work so well for them, they may
> start using other approaches and suddenly you're back needing to learn
> about application-level mechanisms

Because current protocols were done just to solve technical problems
and not also law or other "society" problems. For example, HAM
operators and their networks had, before they started their packets
networks, already laws in place requiring them that each packet should
also contain call-sign of responsible person/station. OK, in this
particular case (as far as I know) this is not cryptographically
enforced (but this is a technical thing) but it still shows that laws
like this can work. So if countries (like they cooperate on ACTA)
would declare that it is illegal to send or route or relay any packet
without information about responsible person for it things would be
much different.

So saying that currently technology does not support this and so it
does not matter is just because it was not required to support this.
But there is nothing preventing that laws would be changed in this
way. Probably also many lobbies are doing in this direction. Adding
another required field to IPv6 is not so hard. Making it
cryptographically secure a bit more. Do all work on teach people about
identity thefts (which would become even more profitable) even harder.

Because of this those are not arguments I could agree upon. They are
true, but it could be also otherwise. I would like to hear good
arguments why even if we would have in place all possible technical
means to identify originators (or possibility to "turn" this on if we
decide so) it would be still "proper" to not go along this path.

I can see arguments for this only possible with basing the argument on
human rights and similar values we might share. But then there are
conflicts of those rights, security vs. freedom.

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