new perspektive for tor
schmidtm524 at googlemail.com
Fri Nov 16 17:04:18 UTC 2007
Hello Roger, hello List
I read on another forum, that you are visiting us for the Congress in Berlin
and will talk later with the people from the
about a new extension to Tor
Due to data retention logg needs/law in the EU, there will be no
outproxy and no forwarding-nodes in the EU anymore, if they do not
logg all traffic. Though there might be a foreign Tor-node in the
chain, e.g. from India or USA, mostley the german or EU Tor nodes are
worthless, as you can follow the chain (if they logg).
The Tor Campain has the idea, to bring Tor on routers, but this is
still then ilegal and needs logging, nor would this use no one and
third we are not FON.
There has been another idea, to put an TOR-Outproxy into Firefox, so
that opening the outproxy is a MUST and default. So tit-for-tat, you
are allowed to surf anonymous, if you allow other to surf through your
Third I thought about this idea:
Developing a second communication layer (second virtual network) for
tor, which is compatible with the peers, but running on a
friend-to-friend private network, which is encrypted and would allow
to support the network not by Outproxies in Germany/EU, but with a lot
of Forwarding-Nodes in germany on this virtual network.
E.G. Dive in in the USA, 4 Hops in Germany, Back one Hop to India and
then surfing to the website. the 4 Forwarding hops in Germany CAN take
place, if they are in a closed virtual private network, where the
entry and last hop of this virtual network layer is outside Germany
(so the 1-before- last hop of the tor-chain).
See the graphic here:
Alice is located in the USA, but it would be no problem to locate
Alice in Germany.
You only need to be sure, that you make the option "outproxy" in a
country, which is outside the data-retention-law, e.g. india.
In the countries, where you have data-retention-law and need to logg,
there it is as well forbidden to use an forwarding-tor-node (except
you logg, but then worthless).
But: if you make the german forwarding nodes in a second layer (I call
it plugin-nodes), then you have encrypted tunnels to friends, this
means you start the virtual forwarding network over an India node,
SWITCH TO F2F-SECURE NETWORK - tiggle it a few hops in germany, and
the last one is forwarding again to india and SO SWITCH BACK FROM
F2F-SECURE NETWORK and make one hop to the website.
This means the TIGGLING HOPS IN GERMANY can be 5 , 7, 10 hops... and
no one knows the IPs of the Tor-Pugins, because it is not relaying on
peers, but trusted friends which maintain a private secure channel
Ok, it is a kind of web of trust with this messenger,
so got one participant by police, you can locally /physically see
which other friends he has, either from the PGP-Certificate, but as
well by the ISP connections. But: This is the same with Tor, and here
you have peers, so it is even more insecure, if there is logging by
the ISP. (and the isp loggs, yes, but in the F2F network you have
streams, so you can deny to run a Tor-Plugin !!! no one can prove !,
that´s the trick !!)
It is a kind of hopping in F2F: the messenger F2F is the basis, and we
only need that for website-data-traffic beeing able to hop the
friends, with the condition: the Outproxy is needed outside the law of
data retention. (if the law is all over the world to logg any
outproxy, then tor is definately dead). See the powerpoint here for
Then the Picture above shows plugin-nodes into a f2f messenger, which
normally are only forwarding (over the secure f2f channel only to
friends with tor-plugin, not to peers with tor). then you have friends
in countries without this data retention law, these friend then CAN
LET THE TOR-PLUGIN connect to the normal TOR node network (forwarding
This would be a good way, the EU and Germany can support the network
by forwarding nodes (the middle chain) - if the Outproxy nodes are in
countries which have not this law.
Maybe you can discuss this,
As well I thought about TOR over i2p.net, but that would make TOR
nodes in germany possible for forwarding, but them outproxing would
relay the traffic to the one and only I2p-Surf-outproxy in Sweden,
which could not handle this.
So I think a F2F network allows to hop and forward the chain in the
middle of the tor-chain for germany, if a friend or a friend of the
friend is outside the law zone with as well such a
f2f-messenger-tor-pugin, which then is directing to the normal tor
network (or direct outproxying ).
Think of this as a pinnball game, in the top you have these tiggle the
ball contacts, before they run down again on your flippers. This
Tiggling and forwarding can take place in germany, if there is a
second layer for plugins, which can both (outside the EU) or only one:
using the secure F2F layer.
See this thread:
Two c++ classes are written to build an web-surf-proxy in the IP of a
friend, so implemented into this messenger, you just pic up your
friend from the messenger list, and start surfing with his IP adress.
So if the friend is in India, any german can surf through his IP, even
groups can surf trough the IP of a friend node, installed on any
server in india, so several friends on the messenger can use one buddy
This way a chinese guy can surf with a friend-IP in the USA to the BBC
news site in England UK.
The code is ready to implement, not done from the project by priority
due to other basic things, but if one is able to implement it, please
adress to the project team.
Hope you see this direct proxying as an alternative and can support
it, the more surf options, the better. So why not surfing through a
buddy from the buddylist. Then you do not need an anonymizing chain,
it is just a method to break firewalls protecting the BBC-news for
chinese users e.g.
Thanks for the interest, and I hope you get some ideas, though to
quick written text with not correcting all the mistakes. Regards Mike.
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