[tor-relays] Fwd: Introducing & Discussing "Reflec-Tor"s as concept | Exit-Relay as Entry-Relay | Tor & Echo | Adding Entry-Relays as Reflec-Tor to Exit-Nodes

Wed Jul 17 06:24:42 UTC 2024

Hello,
as tb discussed further with developers of Tor, the concept of
"Reflec-Tor"s (and Exit-Nodes to be seen also as an Entry-Node) might have
an impact like Snowflakes for Chat and Messaging over Tor and addresses
opinions of Relay admins and university research too.
Regards

---------- Forwarded message ---------
Date: Di., 16. Juli 2024 um 20:36 Uhr
Subject: Fwd: Introducing & Discussing "Reflec-Tor"s as concept |
Exit-Relay as Entry-Relay | Tor & Echo | Adding Entry-Relays as Reflec-Tor
to Exit-Nodes
To: <tor-dev at lists.torproject.org>

System wrote via Tor Project <noreply at forum.torproject.org>:Feedback:
Please submit the proposal also to tor-dev: tor-dev Info PageIntroducing &
Discussing "Reflec-Tor"s as concept | Exit-Relay as Entry-Relay | Tor &
Echo | Adding Entry-Relays as Reflec-Tor to Exit-Nodes
https://www.reddit.com/r/TOR/comments/1e4te8m/introducing_discussing_reflectors_as_concept/

==============================================================Introducing &
Discussing "Reflec-Tor"s as concept | Exit-Relay as Entry-Relay | Tor &
Echo | Adding Entry-Relays as Reflec-Tor to Exit-Nodes

*Tor-Messaging: Introducing & Discussing "Reflec-Tor"s as concept |
Exit-Relay as Entry-Relay |*

Hello,

I think this belongs to this core, general, relay topic-forum, as it is
also a development & community issue, request and efford, I post it here
into the reddit forum for your core discussion:

The idea is to add next to Bridges, Relays and Exit-Nodes also
"Entry-Nodes" as "Reflec-Tor"(s) to the point of Exit-Nodes. Hence:
Exit-Nodes are developed futher to be also an Entry-Node.

Some may remember when gnutella got hybrid with edonkey and then also with
torrent, Mike Stokes from Shareaza did that.

The idea today, 20 years later, is to add some Echo-capabilities to Tor in
regard of the servers for Exit and Entry.

*Vision: Every (updated) Exit-Node is an Echo-Server - For a better
Tor-Messaging.*

What does that mean?

An Echo-Server is a server for chat-messaging to send an incomming message
packet again out to all connected clients at the moment. Ping-in and
Ping-Out to all. That simple, that's why it is called the Echo. Like a
shout in front of a forrest, all connected users can hear and get the
(encrypted) shout or message or packet back from the tree wall.

There are 3 software applications for Echo-Servers:

   -

   https://github.com/textbrowser/spot-on (Desktop, sercer in the Listener
   Tab)
   -

   https://github.com/textbrowser/smokestack (java for Android)
   -

   https://github.com/textbrowser/spot-on-lite (headless deamon for Linux)

Now, the Listener function with ping in and ping out should be implemented
within a Tor-Exit-Node.

When it comes to Tor-Messaging, there are some pathes possible:

A) Tor-Chat-Client-Alice - Tor - Internet - Echo-Server - Internet - Tor -
Tor-Chat-Client-Bob (Tor-proxied Chat-Server, which only accepts encrypted
packets)

B) Tor-Chat-Client-Alice - Echo - Tor - Tor - Echo - Tor-Chat-Client-Bob
(Echo Tor-tunneled)

C) Tor-Chat-Client-Alice - Echo-Server - Tor-Chat-Client-Bob (direct
connection to Echo-Server with only encypted packets)

The request here is to build and develop option A.

That is just right now also possible, by an Exit-Node of Tor running the
Echo-Server-Software on the same machine in parallel. Just the port is
different.

This is an idea for some might be new, but thinking Tor Messaging a bit, it
comes quickly to this ideas and better soluttion.

The way to connect

D) Tor-Chat-Client-Alice - Hidden Onion Server v3 - Tor - Tor - Hidden
Onion Server v3 - Tor-Chat-Client-Bob

is the current given way for clientes like RicoChet Refresh, Quiet or Cwtch.

Similar to Briar, even developers of such clients above tell the loss of
messages and low reliability of the hidden to hidden path. Some of you
might know, that there were use cases with missing messages in a range of
35-45 %. Don't quote me on that, but as core developers and community
members you might be in contact with those who experience this.

Furthermore the Messaging clients are not advanced in functionality, nor
advanced in strong encryption.

It would be third a long development way to got that route.

It is cost effective and needs cappable developers.

Some project have stamped on and made a workable client, but does that
unite all our power in the sense of Tor-Messaging?

Messaging needs a Vision and Statement from the Tor-Core-Developer team
with a discussion in the community in that regard with honor to the
individual projects and also with support for their chosen path (Model D).
At the same time we have to state that it is as it is, a HTTP-Server in the
middle like in Model A is faster than Model D.

In the graph-path the Echo-Server in the middle handles only encrypted
traffic, so it is just like another Relay. We can call it "Reflec-Tor". The
only sense it to multiply incomming encrypted packets from one node to all
connected nodes.

With that Idea, the Messenger Spot-On could be used as a Tor-Messenger.

This Messenger has stong encryption and is full of feature for messaging
and also cryptography.

it is like adding Firefox to Tor-Browsing, when Spot-On is added to
Tor-Messaging.

Something to read at the community forum:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Spot_On_Encryption/

Also there is a Mobile Client for Android, which also connects to
Reflec-Tors, find "Smoke" Messenger at F-Droid.org.

Please, get this right, it is not about a technical view on slow and
failing chat-packets to hidden servers, and it is not about those start-up
clients using this inside technology, some do a good project. It is about
the idea, that an Reflec-Tor mirroring and pinging back packets on the
Exit-Node this hop within the path of tor is not outside, it is always
fully encryted for the messaging packets and should be seen as one
Tor-Path, especially if the Listener-Ping-Back function (the Echo
capabilities) is build in the Exit-Node-Tor Software.

Spot-On is already a Tor-Messenger - as it uses also HTTPs and it sends
only encrypted packets.

*A test is easy to make:*

(1) Start the Tor-Browser, which has always the Port 9051 to Tor, Tor is
running.

Next to Surfing with Tor-Browser Firefox the Chat with Tor-Messenger
Spot-On can start.

(2) Start Spot-On on a webserver and create in the Listeners Tab a Listener
on Port 4710.

(3) Start two Spot-On Instances Alice and Bob on two Laptops, in the
Neighbors Tab you connect the Webserver via Tor: Add the IP and Port 4710
to the neighbor and choose Proxy: 127.0.0.1 Port 4710.

You get the the Path:

Tor-Chat-Client-Alice - Tor - Internet - Echo-Server - Internet - Tor -
Tor-Chat-Client-Bob

The idea is now to integrate this a bit more:

Tor-Chat-Client-Spot-On-Alice - Tor - [Tor-Exit-Node also Reflec-Tor
(Echo-Server)] - Tor - Tor-Chat-Client-Spot-On-Bob

You see, the way stays all within the Tor-Family.

For sure, in case Alice does not want to use Tor, she also can message to
Bob, who is behind Tor.

Tor-Chat-Client-Spot-On-Alice --> [Tor-Exit-Node as Entry-Node also
Reflec-Tor (Echo-Server)] - Tor - Tor-Chat-Client-Spot-On-Bob

The IP of an Entry-Node is shown in the Tor-Browser and can get a port
added. Then two user can simply cata over that node.

We need in times of surveillance, data retention, chat control and for sake
of the needs of whistleblowser and people who want to chat privat and
anonymously more decentral and open source chat server.

*The mission is: Every Tor-Exit Node is an Entry-Node for Chat.*

It should be not a lot of code to be added to the ports of an Exit-Node and
displaying the Port of the Exit-Node in the Tor-Browser path icon.

This makes sense in several effects to be discussed and developed further:

   -

   Taking the next Development Step for Tor-Messaging: BTW, A Forum about
   Tor-Messaging could be made as a category here in the forum please.
   -

   directly support Tor-based Messaging for the Spot-On Messaging client

To be developed and discussed is, if this infra-structure could help to

   -

   support bootstrapping of Tor
   -

   support Censorship circumvention of Tor Reflec-Tors as SnowFlakes over
   the Messenger with EPKS
   -

   Accept, that some routing to an HTTPS internet server at the Tor-Node is
   faster than to an hidden onion server at the Tor Node.

Well, to add some "ping-in-and-out" for an packet is what every netcat and
socat under linux can do. It is a small development step to make each
Tor-Exit node a free chat server for messaging, which is a big step for
mankind to have a network of free messaging chat servers.

Lets also see, how users and community will test and develop this
messaging. So it is not only a discussion for developers, it is also a step
forward the needs of the communities *for a free internet:*

   -

   *for chat and their discussions.*

A few code lines to exit nodes make them a Reflec-Tor and messaging over
Tor can start really decentral and open source and free.

*What do you think?* does this privacy-concept bring more privacy and
reliability in packet delivery to messaging with Tor?

Regards
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