[tor-relays] Fwd: Fw: german plans on banning TOR

Fri Mar 15 15:38:28 UTC 2019

On 3/15/19 2:43 PM, Volker Mink wrote:

> German gouvernment signs new darknet laws.

Completely wrong. The Bundesrat does not sign any laws and it is not the
German government. It forwards them to the Bundestag which will discuss
and _perhaps_ sign it.

So, not all is lost at this point.  Additionally it seems to me that the
intention, which potentially criminalizes running a tor relay in
general, was removed by the committees.

Nevertheless this peace of paper is completely useless and potentially
dangerous even if its all about the so called darknet-stores.

All the best

flux

PS: This is the wrong list as it is supposed to be used for
administrative discussions. Please use the tor-talk list instead.

>  
>  
> *Gesendet:* Montag, 11. März 2019 um 21:52 Uhr
> *Von:* "Herbert Karl Mathé" <mail at hkmathe.de>
> *An:* tor-talk <tor-talk at lists.torproject.org>, tor-relays
> <tor-relays at lists.torproject.org>, "Seth David Schoen" <schoen at eff.org>
> *Betreff:* [tor-relays] Fw: german plans on banning TOR
> Please see below, as well as (German) legislation:
> https://www.bundesrat.de/SharedDocs/drucksachen/2019/0001-0100/33-19.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=1.
>
> Bigger picture likely to be behind as pointed out some days ago.
>
> Shit like this adding to tightening police forces' legislations in
> various Federal States in not-so Good Old Germany.
>
> --
> Herbert Karl Mathé
>
> mail at hkmathe.de
> PGP B9BF953500452875 https://www.hkmathe.de/pub_key_16-07-09.txt
> @hkmathe
> Beethovenstr. 13 60325 Frankfurt Germany
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2019 22:39:47 +0100
> From: Herbert Karl Mathé <mail at hkmathe.de>
> To: niftybunny <abuse at to-surf-and-protect.net>
> Cc: tor-relays at lists.torproject.org
> Subject: Re: [tor-relays] german plans on banning TOR
>
>
> Let's be pragmatic:
>
> There's "anti-darkweb" propaganda been quite a while going on, mainly
> by Federal Criminal Police Office, backed up by Christian (so-called)
> Democrats, and the Nazi party, sure, pointing out like lots of
> children's lives could be saved, or saved from being abused, resp.,
> when vanquishing "The Darkweb". Trucks (lorries), knifes, or similar
> potentially lethal objects are not on their agenda. Police
> spokespersons around the clock complaining being substantially
> disadvantaged - should say: retarded???
>
> Unsurprisingly, police forces in any legislation are not neutral,
> these do not at all mirror society and its inherent diversity. Plus,
> police forces very indirectly are serving the public, with any
> misdemeanor or assaults to be prosecuted not before afterwards by
> taking complex, costly and risky legal actions, never immediately, or
> right in place. That makes a huge difference.
>
> What this legislation is very likely ending up is various courts
> ruling through verdicts on eventually shutting down specific sites.
> These verdicts might easily appear as being random, which is due to
> immense lack of in-depth knowledge in related matters (see file
> sharing dissuasions by dedicated law firms being backed by courts
> having difficulties understanding IP addresses), also due to each and
> every court ruling independent which makes it like gambling, these
> courts at the same time being highly susceptible to what is believed
> by them to be public opinion.
>
> The latter is what's being made up right with this legislative
> initiative, leveraging Tor Project for staging some threat model.
> Cynically enough, threat (by The Onion) again is from foreign, just
> like for some time refugees had been said to be (evil propaganda which
> obviously, and thank god, did not fully work out).
>
> In phase of weakness, it's always the outlandish being plead guilty,
> being abused to deviate from domestic, and home-made, self-made failure.
>
> No facts yet, just some reflected opinions - as soon as such
> legislation is out it'll be much harder to defend liberty. It's not
> about paragraphs, or bits and bytes, it's about freedom and democracy.
>
> Free press, and journalists as individuals will as consequence be
> under heavy suspicion for cooperating with elements of Dark Web.
>
> If Germany falls...
>
> --
> Herbert Karl Mathé
>
> mail at hkmathe.de
> PGP B9BF953500452875 https://www.hkmathe.de/pub_key_16-07-09.txt
> @hkmathe
> Beethovenstr. 13 60325 Frankfurt Germany
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 21:19:23 +0100
> niftybunny <abuse at to-surf-and-protect.net> wrote:
>
> > > "Zum anderen ist die Zugänglichmachung jedes
> > > internetbasierten Angebots, das auf die Begehung jeglicher
> > > Straftaten gerichtet ist, gleichermaßen strafwürdig."
> >
> >
> > Thats every ISP on the world. Every ISP on the world lets you
> connect to the internet. What they want to do is outlaw the running of
> markets who promote drugs, weapons and cheese pizza.
> > Thats already the case. The just want it in one law so they don't
> have to process several accusations.
> >
> > I read it weeks ago and Tor will not be outlawed in this case.
> >
> > > "Betreiber, deren Angebote ohne entsprechende Zielrichtung zur
> Förderung von Straftaten genutzt
> > > werden, vom Tatbestand ausgenommen. “
> >
> > Ebay will not get fucked, only if you have a market which prime
> directive is to sell drugs, weapons and CP.
> >
> > > Referenced to § 129 StGB in the text: reference is made to
> membership in a criminal organization. The Tor project will then be
> declared as such.
> >
> > Dear god …
> >
> >
> > > On 6. Mar 2019, at 20:35, Olaf Grimm <jeep665 at posteo.de> wrote:
> > >
> > > Some contradictions in the recommendations of the committee:
> > >
> > > Take a look on page 6 and 7 (in german, translation of the
> sentences below).
> > >
> > > "Zum anderen ist die Zugänglichmachung jedes
> > > internetbasierten Angebots, das auf die Begehung jeglicher
> > > Straftaten gerichtet ist, gleichermaßen strafwürdig."
> > >
> > > "Second, the availability of each
> > > Internet-based offer, based on the commission of any
> > > Criminal offenses is equally punishable."
> > >
> > > "Betreiber, deren Angebote ohne entsprechende Zielrichtung zur
> Förderung von Straftaten genutzt
> > > werden, vom Tatbestand ausgenommen. "
> > >
> > > "Operators whose offers are used without appropriate target
> direction for the promotion of criminal offenses
> > > be excluded from the facts."
> > >
> > >
> https://www.bundesrat.de/SharedDocs/drucksachen/2019/0001-0100/33-1-19.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=1
> <https://www.bundesrat.de/SharedDocs/drucksachen/2019/0001-0100/33-1-19.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=1>
> > >
> > > I think that's the first step to forbid Tor. The text indicates
> operators. Is my relay abroad illegal because I'm German?
> > > Referenced to § 129 StGB in the text: reference is made to
> membership in a criminal organization. The Tor project will then be
> declared as such.
> > >
> > > Olaf
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Am 06.03.19 um 15:47 schrieb Volker Mink:
> [...]
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > tor-relays mailing list
> > > tor-relays at lists.torproject.org
> > > https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
> >
>
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