[tor-relays] Fw: german plans on banning TOR

Fri Mar 15 14:55:17 UTC 2019

Am 15.03.2019 um 14:43 schrieb Volker Mink:
> Fellow friends, the times are a'changing...
> https://netzpolitik.org/2019/bundesrat-bringt-darknet-gesetz-auf-den-weg/
> 
> German gouvernment signs new darknet laws.

Please don't cite and translate the article in a way which can be
misleading.

First of all nothing is decided yet. The federal council (Bundesrat)
made a motion and suggests to implement a law which will hurt tor.

The motion must pass parliament before it will turn into a law.

> *Gesendet:* Montag, 11. März 2019 um 21:52 Uhr
> *Von:* "Herbert Karl Mathé" <mail at hkmathe.de>
> *An:* tor-talk <tor-talk at lists.torproject.org>, tor-relays
> <tor-relays at lists.torproject.org>, "Seth David Schoen" <schoen at eff.org>
> *Betreff:* [tor-relays] Fw: german plans on banning TOR
> Please see below, as well as (German) legislation:
> https://www.bundesrat.de/SharedDocs/drucksachen/2019/0001-0100/33-19.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=1.
> 
> Bigger picture likely to be behind as pointed out some days ago.
> 
> Shit like this adding to tightening police forces' legislations in
> various Federal States in not-so Good Old Germany.
> 
> --
> Herbert Karl Mathé
> 
> mail at hkmathe.de
> PGP B9BF953500452875 https://www.hkmathe.de/pub_key_16-07-09.txt
> @hkmathe
> Beethovenstr. 13 60325 Frankfurt Germany
> 
> 
> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2019 22:39:47 +0100
> From: Herbert Karl Mathé <mail at hkmathe.de>
> To: niftybunny <abuse at to-surf-and-protect.net>
> Cc: tor-relays at lists.torproject.org
> Subject: Re: [tor-relays] german plans on banning TOR
> 
> 
> Let's be pragmatic:
> 
> There's "anti-darkweb" propaganda been quite a while going on, mainly by
> Federal Criminal Police Office, backed up by Christian (so-called)
> Democrats, and the Nazi party, sure, pointing out like lots of
> children's lives could be saved, or saved from being abused, resp., when
> vanquishing "The Darkweb". Trucks (lorries), knifes, or similar
> potentially lethal objects are not on their agenda. Police spokespersons
> around the clock complaining being substantially disadvantaged - should
> say: retarded???
> 
> Unsurprisingly, police forces in any legislation are not neutral, these
> do not at all mirror society and its inherent diversity. Plus, police
> forces very indirectly are serving the public, with any misdemeanor or
> assaults to be prosecuted not before afterwards by taking complex,
> costly and risky legal actions, never immediately, or right in place.
> That makes a huge difference.
> 
> What this legislation is very likely ending up is various courts ruling
> through verdicts on eventually shutting down specific sites. These
> verdicts might easily appear as being random, which is due to immense
> lack of in-depth knowledge in related matters (see file sharing
> dissuasions by dedicated law firms being backed by courts having
> difficulties understanding IP addresses), also due to each and every
> court ruling independent which makes it like gambling, these courts at
> the same time being highly susceptible to what is believed by them to be
> public opinion.
> 
> The latter is what's being made up right with this legislative
> initiative, leveraging Tor Project for staging some threat model.
> Cynically enough, threat (by The Onion) again is from foreign, just like
> for some time refugees had been said to be (evil propaganda which
> obviously, and thank god, did not fully work out).
> 
> In phase of weakness, it's always the outlandish being plead guilty,
> being abused to deviate from domestic, and home-made, self-made failure.
> 
> No facts yet, just some reflected opinions - as soon as such legislation
> is out it'll be much harder to defend liberty. It's not about
> paragraphs, or bits and bytes, it's about freedom and democracy.
> 
> Free press, and journalists as individuals will as consequence be under
> heavy suspicion for cooperating with elements of Dark Web.
> 
> If Germany falls...
> 
> --
> Herbert Karl Mathé
> 
> mail at hkmathe.de
> PGP B9BF953500452875 https://www.hkmathe.de/pub_key_16-07-09.txt
> @hkmathe
> Beethovenstr. 13 60325 Frankfurt Germany
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 21:19:23 +0100
> niftybunny <abuse at to-surf-and-protect.net> wrote:
> 
>> > "Zum anderen ist die Zugänglichmachung jedes
>> > internetbasierten Angebots, das auf die Begehung jeglicher
>> > Straftaten gerichtet ist, gleichermaßen strafwürdig."
>>
>>
>> Thats every ISP on the world. Every ISP on the world lets you connect
> to the internet. What they want to do is outlaw the running of markets
> who promote drugs, weapons and cheese pizza.
>> Thats already the case. The just want it in one law so they don't have
> to process several accusations.
>>
>> I read it weeks ago and Tor will not be outlawed in this case.
>>
>> > "Betreiber, deren Angebote ohne entsprechende Zielrichtung zur
> Förderung von Straftaten genutzt
>> > werden, vom Tatbestand ausgenommen. “
>>
>> Ebay will not get fucked, only if you have a market which prime
> directive is to sell drugs, weapons and CP.
>>
>> > Referenced to § 129 StGB in the text: reference is made to
> membership in a criminal organization. The Tor project will then be
> declared as such.
>>
>> Dear god …
>>
>>
>> > On 6. Mar 2019, at 20:35, Olaf Grimm <jeep665 at posteo.de> wrote:
>> >
>> > Some contradictions in the recommendations of the committee:
>> >
>> > Take a look on page 6 and 7 (in german, translation of the sentences
> below).
>> >
>> > "Zum anderen ist die Zugänglichmachung jedes
>> > internetbasierten Angebots, das auf die Begehung jeglicher
>> > Straftaten gerichtet ist, gleichermaßen strafwürdig."
>> >
>> > "Second, the availability of each
>> > Internet-based offer, based on the commission of any
>> > Criminal offenses is equally punishable."
>> >
>> > "Betreiber, deren Angebote ohne entsprechende Zielrichtung zur
> Förderung von Straftaten genutzt
>> > werden, vom Tatbestand ausgenommen. "
>> >
>> > "Operators whose offers are used without appropriate target
> direction for the promotion of criminal offenses
>> > be excluded from the facts."
>> >
>> >
> https://www.bundesrat.de/SharedDocs/drucksachen/2019/0001-0100/33-1-19.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=1
> <https://www.bundesrat.de/SharedDocs/drucksachen/2019/0001-0100/33-1-19.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=1>
>> >
>> > I think that's the first step to forbid Tor. The text indicates
> operators. Is my relay abroad illegal because I'm German?
>> > Referenced to § 129 StGB in the text: reference is made to
> membership in a criminal organization. The Tor project will then be
> declared as such.
>> >
>> > Olaf
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Am 06.03.19 um 15:47 schrieb Volker Mink:
> [...]
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > tor-relays mailing list
>> > tor-relays at lists.torproject.org
>> > https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
>>
> 
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