[tor-relays] OS diversity of tor relays (was Re: Relay uptime versus outdated Tor version)

[George]

Duncan:
> Hi!
> 
> Ybslik:
>> Hi all,

Not sure how to start interjecting into this thread, but it does fit
into how this August hasn't been a usual "dog days of summer" in more
ways than one.

Coming from the perspective of TDP (https://torbsd.github.io/). . .

Some comments below, including replies to earlier pieces that were sniped.

>>
>>             I have been following the emails with intrigue. I run a
>> Windows10 system at home through Virgin Media Hub, my package with
>> them is the 300Mbps one. I recently had  cause to research what Tor
>> was about. I decided upon that research to run a Middle Relay.
>>
>>  So I purchased my computer parts (I self Build my machines)  and
>> obtained the help of a friend to load Ubuntu 16.04 LTS. It's not a
>> super machine but it runs on a AMD A4-6300 APU with Radeon(tm) HD
>> Graphics × 2 - OS 64bit - with an SSD hard drive.
>>
>> I followed the instructions on how to load the relay and set it up,
>> took me more than a week or so as I am no genius on Linux.

That is a significant point. Do you really want someone not familiar
with an OS to start running it as a public relay?  I certainly don't.

I'd rather have Windows admins who are comfortable with their OS running
relays as opposed to any other OS. I would rather hit a relay from Tom R
than a lot of other people...

>>
>> slow learning curve but we got there.
>>
>> My relay is called Ybslik - it's been up and down due to my inability
>> to understand how to configure things within the terminal.
>>
> Thanks for running a relay!

Yes.  Thanks.

> 
>> But with the help from StackExchange I have been able to complete some
>> tasks.
>>
>> My small relay is now working ok and I hope adding to the Diversity of
>> Tor.
>>
> However, it's worth noting that by the "diversity of the Tor network",
> we're trying to push for non-Linux relays. It's just a point to note -
> it's great you've run a relay, it's just that you've not added to the
> diversity of the operating system of relays. If you feel able to, if or
> when you spin up a new relay, you should consider running a BSD, e.g.
> OpenBSD. However, diversity of location is also important, one supposes!
> So your home relay is at least adding to that, depending on where you live.
> 
> Thanks for running a relay,

Yup!

And stick to an OS you know best.

In regards to the other questions:

>      Windows is already running a huge percentage of the tor relay population.
> How are you going to recruit Windows users to run relays on an OS they don't
> already use?  I contend that you won't.  Instead, you must recruit current
> users of such OS.

Well, not really from our stats.

From the bandwidth measure:

https://torbsd.github.io/oostats/relays-bw-by-os.txt

By consensus weight:

https://torbsd.github.io/oostats/relays-cweight-by-os.txt

And by just an absolute count of OSs:

https://torbsd.github.io/oostats/relays-os-count.txt

Ironically in the first two sets of stats, even OpenBSD (relatively)
dwarfs Windows with bandwidth and consensus weights.

You can tinker with the stats yourself with the source here:

https://github.com/torbsd/tdp-onion-stats/

Regarding Debian "unattended-upgrade" comparisons, I don't know much
about Debian nor what exactly you mean.

OpenBSD does now have syspatch (https://man.openbsd.org/syspatch) which
can be in cron to note patches available for the -stable branch.

FreeBSD's pkg does the contemporary functions with packaging and
updates, as does freebsd-update with the base OS as noted.

I do think the question of system automation is overblown. Most people
aren't running more than a few relays, and something like clusterssh is
more than enough, along with the tools already in the base of most OSs.
These are not server farms in most cases, and really shouldn't be. How
much time can we imagine people spend tailing logs on stable Tor relays?

Sometimes I feel like I should just work on comparison charts to deal
with FUD regarding the BSDs.

I have no idea why relay admins become relay admins. I did see one of
the early presentations by Roger and Nick in NYC a very long time ago,
and it was a short path from running the client to running a relay. It
makes sense to court people who are already sysadmins (er, devops) to
run relays, as the learning curve or familiarity with running a public
server is easier to broach than for most desktop users.

In terms of client software, that's really a whole other question.

Certainly diversity matters there, but maybe with an emphasis on more
developer-level issues. It's Windows and Android/iOS which dominate the
"desktop" market it seems.

OpenBSD strictly adheres to standards like POSIX, making porting *from*
OpenBSD an easier task. And it also means OpenBSD barks while other OSes
tend to glide by errors. The licensing of the BSD operating systems is
some variant of the BSD license, which may mean some are more apt to
build systems that could integrate Tor Browser into it.

We are at the early stages of a TB for FreeBSD
(https://github.com/torbsd/freebsd-ports/).

Finally, I have personally made this point before, and will not stop as
long as it's necessary.

We have gotten nothing but encouragement and raves from many people in
the Tor Project. I am yet to meet any of the large full-time or
volunteer TP universe who doesn't know our project and the years we have
put into it. Even when we burp something remotely interesting, it gets
tweeted, even though we don't have a Twitter account.

Frankly, we're a bit overwhelmed on our end. We have obfs4proxy and its
dependencies ready for testing for both OpenBSD and FreeBSD, plus it's
in NetBSD ports-wip. We have to fight through each release of TB for
OpenBSD but still need to get it backported so it hits -stable. I could
go on and on. If you're really interested in diversity with BSDs, then
fork our code on GitHub, test out the ports, etc.

Final note. I started running meetings to "recruit" Tor relays admins
many years ago, maybe in 2011, among a layer of BSD people in NYC. TDP
is going to start a little campaign in the BSD community to get others
to do the same with bridges in the near future since bridge OS diversity
is worse than relay deversity. If anyone really wants to improve the OS
diversity situation and start 'recruiting' more non-Linux admins, that's
a great place to start. Who's going to EuroBSDCon?  vBSDCon?  A great
BoF topic IMHO.

As a teacher once shouted at me, "I'm from Missouri, show me." (ie,
Missouri in the US claims to be the "show me" state).

g


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