Proposal 144: enforce distinct providers

Cat Okita cat at
Sun Jul 13 19:44:13 UTC 2008

On Thu, 3 Jul 2008, M Fr wrote:
> First, because this excellent paper
> as already
> demonstrated that it's not necessary because of the BGP logic of
> traffic repartition between peering and providers.

That paper doesn't address the question of how exchanges fit into the global
routing structure, and also makes naive assumptions about how traffic is

> The objective is to prevent people observing a circuit with all
> routers in the same provider area.

>> Further, without correlation of leaf nodes that are partially or completely
>> subsumbed in a given AS, changing AS numbers isn't really indicative of any
>> useful characteristic.  For that matter, without correlating all of the AS
>> numbers owned by a given entity (an interesting challenge, to be polite),
>> there's no guarantee at all that a changing AS reflects anything at all.
> Please check the list referenced
> http://as4jtw5gc6efb267.onion/IPListbyAS.txt if you find many
> redundant providers. I've not found many cases in fact two (Road
> Runner and one chinese operator)
> For more than 90% of nodes it's efficient.

I'm looking at that file, and need some clarification.  It looks like the
file consists of a list of tor nodes and their associated AS -- is that 
correct?  Also - over what time period was this information collected?

> Perhaps as i've said the proposal could be improved making AS family
> but cos i've no ideas on circuit build in china, i've not added any
> restrictive proposal.
> And also I don't  want to increase network latency.
> This proposal is supposed to be iso-latency.

To spell it out - even looking at the list that you've provided, I can
see multiple cases where you have a node that's on an AS which hangs off
of one or two entities already listed, so you've immediately got an overlap.

There's also a notable lack of some of the tier-1 ISPs -- and that's before
even considering the question of physical vs virtual circuits.

>> Beyond that, if you're still talking about classful address space in this
>> day
>> and age, I'd suggest that some consideration of modern networking might well
>> be in order...
> Sorry English is not my mother langage, sometimes i use the more
> simple language for me.


> How can you improve this proposal ?

I'm honestly not certain that I can think of a way that this proposal can be
improved enough to be a help, rather than a hinderance.


>> On Tue, 1 Jul 2008, Nick Mathewson wrote:
>>> Filename: 144-enforce-distinct-providers.txt
>>> Title: Increase the diversity of circuits by detecting nodes belonging the
>>> same provider
>>> Author: Mfr
>>> Created: 2008-06-15
>>> Status: Draft

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