[tor-bugs] #23270 [Core Tor/Tor]: Allow Tor relays to be configured to block selected hidden services, including racist hate sites (was: Please stop tor routers from advertising racist hate websites)

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#23270: Allow Tor relays to be configured to block selected hidden services,
including racist hate sites
-------------------------------------------------+-------------------------
 Reporter:  cypherpunks                          |          Owner:  (none)
     Type:  enhancement                          |         Status:  closed
 Priority:  Medium                               |      Milestone:  Tor:
                                                 |  unspecified
Component:  Core Tor/Tor                         |        Version:
 Severity:  Normal                               |     Resolution:  invalid
 Keywords:  racism, hate, anti-fascism,          |  Actual Points:
  probably-bad-idea, slippery-slope, but-its-    |
  the-good-kind-of-censorship,                   |
Parent ID:                                       |         Points:
 Reviewer:                                       |        Sponsor:
-------------------------------------------------+-------------------------
Changes (by nickm):

 * keywords:  racism, hate, anti-fascism =>
     racism, hate, anti-fascism, probably-bad-idea, slippery-slope, but-
     its-the-good-kind-of-censorship,


Old description:

> We are glad that tor project has spoken out against racist hate speech
> sites but talk is cheap.
>
> Tor routers stil advertize hate sites like "dstormer6em3i4km.onion".
> Please include this url as blocked in the default configuration so that
> routers will not broadcast it.

New description:

 We are glad that tor project has spoken out against racist hate speech
 sites but talk is cheap.

 Tor routers stil advertize hate sites like "--.onion". Please include this
 url as blocked in the default configuration so that routers will not
 broadcast it.

--

Comment:

 We can't build anticensorship tools with censorship features, since doing
 so puts everyone at risk.  I'll try to explain why.

 (Before I go into it, though, let's reflect on how desperate these racist
 scumbags are, to be using a service written and operated by folks like you
 and me.  What losers!  If they really believed they were the "superior
 race", they'd try to write their own cryptography like the real nazis did,
 rather than relying on a mixed group of "degenerates" like us.)

 You describe a solution where hidden service directories can block
 whatever their operators believe should be blocked.  I think this would
 not have the results you want, for quite a few reasons.  I'll try to put a
 few of them down in one place, so I can link to it when I want to in the
 future.

   1. It doesn't do what you want.  Even if you had a list of hidden
 service descriptors you wouldn't serve, you'd still get used as an
 introduction point or a rendezvous point.
   2. It doesn't block the service until *every* HSDir corresponding to the
 service on the hash ring blocks it.  The loser scumbags' website would be
 up more than 50% of the time, even if you got 90% of the relay operators
 to  all block it.  (And there's no way you can get 90% of relay operators
 to agree to anything.)
   3. It only works until the stupid racist bastards change their .onion
 address.  The censoring relays would need to find mirrors and
 automatically add the mirrors to their blacklists. This requires an
 increasingly elaborate and centralized mechanism, which is not what you
 say you want.
   4. It has potential, in some jurisdictions, to open relay operators to
 legal liability for things that they choose _not_ to censor. (IANAL,
 TINLA)
   5. The directory authorities would need to decide how much a relay can
 censor before it is not suitable for use as an hsdir.  This undoes the
 supposed democracy of the situation, _and_ puts the directory authorities
 into the role of censor-censors. Again, centralization.
   6. When censorship is possible and routine, censorship is far more
 easily compelled.

 Of course, maybe you could try to design a censorship tool that didn't
 have these problems!  But I think you'd find it pretty challenging.  It's
 hard enough to build an anticensorship network.

 I'm also going to edit your post to take out the link, and to reflect the
 feature you are requesting.  If you believe what you say you believe, you
 should not link to nazi sites. They like it when you do that.

 (Also, my apologies if I have let any brusque tone come through, but:
 there have been a lot of people trolling us over the past few days,
 pretending to be things that they are not, many of them using jargon
 that's atypical for their professed positions.  I've run into arguments
 like this a lot over and over in different places, and often, after having
 responded in good faith, I found out that I've been trolled. This kinda
 makes me short-tempered with this stuff.  If you want a good-faith
 discussion, maybe get in touch by some other means (so that trolls can't
 impersonate you), and stop accusing us of bad faith in all your messages.
 When you do that, it makes it hard for the folks you're accusing to keep a
 level head.)

--
Ticket URL: <https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/23270#comment:13>
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