Interrogated by Finnish police for alleged idendity crimes, fraud and attempts of fraud
Putting the word out: I was interrogated by the Finnish police today for multiple alleged counts (15+) of identity crimes, fraud and attempts of fraud. The invitation letter to be interrogated was sent out on 2016-10-21 and received by me on 2016-10-25. Today is 2016-10-31. The police suspects me because of an "IP-address assigned to my name", which I can't confirm or deny to have a relation to me. As a suspect, I was not told what this aclaimed IP-address was on a specific date to my knowledge. It is only speculation if these allegations wrongly against me have something to do with my relation with the Tor community or activism about digital rights online. Pending ongoing investigation, I am not allowed by law to share more specific details about to the investigation. I'd be glad to reveal more details about the case once the investigation is over and share/hear how I became a suspect, once I know about it. (Note that my story is at least slightly opinionated.) I had a witness with me and I feel like my rights were being violated during the interrogation. The officer (not to be named publicly in respect for privacy) didn't want to allow me to write down their badge number by taking the badge away from me while trying to write down the numbers. The officer looked slightly anxious. After refusing to comment on few questions (to which I have a legal right as a suspect), soon after me and my belongings with me were searched for aclaimed "security reasons" and "making sure I'm not recording this interrogation (with a phone)". I'll let you decide on the implications on unwarranted searches and individual legal protection. (See supreme court decision KKO:1990:36.) I audibly and multiple times in calm manner protested to not consent to searches, but alas it happened against my will without being suspected of wrongdoing at the police station in front of my witness. I didn't physically resist but also didn't voluntarily help the officer. The officer asked me inappropriate questions which were not related to the investigation. I was asked about my previous involvement with the police, how much I knew about the law and unsolicited advice about how "it will be easier for me if I talked". I demanded the officer to write down every question since the beginning of interrogation to the interrogation minutes, including the inappropriate ones, but the officer refused, trying to make up a fake reason how they were "irrelevant". The officer raised their voice once or twice during the 45 minutes of interrogation, apparently angry that I would not "make a confession" or "help out and tell more" to prove innocence. Confronting the officer again with a simple question "am I a suspect or a witness" to confirm my position, I was confirmed again that I was a suspect in the case. Subtly reminding that "I have my rights" that should be respected, the officer replied among the lines of "I have my rights too" with disrespect. After the interrogation minutes did not rightfully represent what was actually questioned, the only sensible thing to me was to not sign the minutes. The officer after the officer made threatening claims about how I "would be going to court" over this, but didn't spend too much effort on trying to get my signature. Once the interrogation was concluded, the officer made an unsolicited comment of "gladly not seeing people like [me] often". I told that I would be in contact with my lawyers. I am glad that I was not detained in a cell or arrested, which in my opinion I can likely attribute to having a witness with me. Looking back at what just happened at the police station, I should have demanded a lawyer immediately to the interrogation after having my rights violated, but I'm relying on my witness for now to make a testimony if necessary. I repeat that I absolutely deny being guilty of any suspected crimes. Be safe out there, tor-relays@ and all. (I have legal support behind me and have never been particularly worried about the investigation or outcome of this case.) Proof of invitation letter: https://wubthecaptain.eu/files/legal/2016-10-21-alleged-fraud-identity-crime...
Very sorry to hear of this. Do you run a Tor relay? If so, is it based in Finland? On 31 October 2016 at 13:25, Juuso Lapinlampi <wub@partyvan.eu> wrote:
Putting the word out: I was interrogated by the Finnish police today for multiple alleged counts (15+) of identity crimes, fraud and attempts of fraud. The invitation letter to be interrogated was sent out on 2016-10-21 and received by me on 2016-10-25. Today is 2016-10-31.
The police suspects me because of an "IP-address assigned to my name", which I can't confirm or deny to have a relation to me. As a suspect, I was not told what this aclaimed IP-address was on a specific date to my knowledge. It is only speculation if these allegations wrongly against me have something to do with my relation with the Tor community or activism about digital rights online.
Pending ongoing investigation, I am not allowed by law to share more specific details about to the investigation. I'd be glad to reveal more details about the case once the investigation is over and share/hear how I became a suspect, once I know about it. (Note that my story is at least slightly opinionated.)
I had a witness with me and I feel like my rights were being violated during the interrogation. The officer (not to be named publicly in respect for privacy) didn't want to allow me to write down their badge number by taking the badge away from me while trying to write down the numbers. The officer looked slightly anxious.
After refusing to comment on few questions (to which I have a legal right as a suspect), soon after me and my belongings with me were searched for aclaimed "security reasons" and "making sure I'm not recording this interrogation (with a phone)". I'll let you decide on the implications on unwarranted searches and individual legal protection. (See supreme court decision KKO:1990:36.)
I audibly and multiple times in calm manner protested to not consent to searches, but alas it happened against my will without being suspected of wrongdoing at the police station in front of my witness. I didn't physically resist but also didn't voluntarily help the officer.
The officer asked me inappropriate questions which were not related to the investigation. I was asked about my previous involvement with the police, how much I knew about the law and unsolicited advice about how "it will be easier for me if I talked". I demanded the officer to write down every question since the beginning of interrogation to the interrogation minutes, including the inappropriate ones, but the officer refused, trying to make up a fake reason how they were "irrelevant".
The officer raised their voice once or twice during the 45 minutes of interrogation, apparently angry that I would not "make a confession" or "help out and tell more" to prove innocence. Confronting the officer again with a simple question "am I a suspect or a witness" to confirm my position, I was confirmed again that I was a suspect in the case. Subtly reminding that "I have my rights" that should be respected, the officer replied among the lines of "I have my rights too" with disrespect.
After the interrogation minutes did not rightfully represent what was actually questioned, the only sensible thing to me was to not sign the minutes. The officer after the officer made threatening claims about how I "would be going to court" over this, but didn't spend too much effort on trying to get my signature.
Once the interrogation was concluded, the officer made an unsolicited comment of "gladly not seeing people like [me] often". I told that I would be in contact with my lawyers.
I am glad that I was not detained in a cell or arrested, which in my opinion I can likely attribute to having a witness with me. Looking back at what just happened at the police station, I should have demanded a lawyer immediately to the interrogation after having my rights violated, but I'm relying on my witness for now to make a testimony if necessary.
I repeat that I absolutely deny being guilty of any suspected crimes. Be safe out there, tor-relays@ and all. (I have legal support behind me and have never been particularly worried about the investigation or outcome of this case.)
Proof of invitation letter: https://wubthecaptain.eu/files/legal/2016-10-21- alleged-fraud-identity-crime.jpg _______________________________________________ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 Juuso Lapinlampi wrote on 31/10/2016 14:25:
Putting the word out: I was interrogated by the Finnish police...
All my support to you, for what it's worth. If you are running a Tor node, don't give up. We, who live in relatively decent countries, can afford some police "pressure" every once in a while, instead of people who would risk much worst. Bye, Marco - -- https://atlas.torproject.org/#details/A1D5528320F51B910C996CE9988FAFAF478004... -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJYF3OvAAoJEB/R9oFxDPMwaJwQAIPs29o+pW8pIFV1FkWx0u43 uQQ0R6GL14osympaTpVMi9w1ZPCC6H1TBOPIs/3r7wr0ALtu5UeDS0cwiOk3SpLL wFct1S6stDKZwwionVonLpH3lmeK0iXSM96pBd9qDM5eKRSJLJV/cBJ8aLuIOVIt Pfxfai16u5/K3mYeS27YR62VtgRaXNqPF26H89/SAuE+CdckX2QvU0ip4JDD8jEJ oidv8OrBD7p8IvMgT2tgSlrrvLk8Bzn5IfY2lg1JxRr6GEY6lzR745gifmJcqWnD 36iza3GH+htWHS0wz99ozqrHBEWQfHT3d1xmOgED78rDx3zWqwc0+/CEqRJgRV52 QBQv0kM4ub8nqbQhk1eQsWNSdeeouSNpQtNU1kM90mttIdfEYb0Xss/F2sEiB86s knt7xwUIoUJiEdeOuSD1+bVypHA6y3IO4fT8EmUZX+vOTGrcpgsFYZgN8wG6cv7c vhDKZRmYHKno/i0mJ+bMdNE0d+1d0ZBiHz7yz24oNyaUeCl/EfyObhNKIxIl5cF4 8z+3NIz3p9frKh/E9xsfvPKRUYD9T+eDUz/hHfqtjRANnXgeP4Iz0BnUhvz8SZ9+ W+hYh9Ci33kBDboKozfJkvaVdG3vFM4qpexL0ZVfg9i3EnhohogRXwRfuysslJYX Qkx6YAv4pVTwhA80IHuW =xXnz -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Hi, With the 3 big exit nodes I had in France (about 30MB/s in both direction for each of them), I got called by police a lot of time (may be 10 times approximately ? I do not really count anymore) on investigations about misdeed that was committed from IP addresses of my Tor relays (95.130.9.190 and 95.130.9.89 mainly, at Digicube, not running anymore since June, 2015). No call about the Online.net one (62.210.206.25, now Relay only since January, 2015), which was as big as the 2 others and Exit too, but the ISP is well known as servers and website big provider in France so I guess they realize it's an exit node before calling me. The "facts" were also, most of the time, fraud and attempts of fraud but also slander one time. I was most of the time called as suspect because IP are related to my name (because I was leasing those servers), as for a home connection in their point of view (not aware that those IP are dedicated servers IP). Then I simply explain this in appropriate terms. After some times, depending on the agent, for new investigations I'm sometimes "heard" as witness. And most of the time the meeting is fine. Each time, I explain that my servers are rented in my name, and that I use them for volunteer participation to a free proxies and VPN network called Tor. I then give some details and explanations about what is Tor, who created it, what are the goals of the project (about protection of expression in bad countries and censorship avoidance, by accessing the same Internet that others do, pricacy protection too), and yes, the misuses... and that these are discouraging misuse and it is not the reason why we participate in this network (far from it !). Then I give the IP of those servers (and one of them is the reason why they called me). And I explain that they are computers with a very fast bandwidth, located in datacenters (Rennes, Vitry...) that can be accessed and configured remotely, like a remote desktop. When they ask the question about logs and how to find the author of the fact, my answer is that (unfortunately in that case), Tor is designed as it's not possible for anybody to find who is the IP address from where the traffic originated. It's very secure for those who need to use it. Of course I tell them that if they have suspects in the entourage of the victim, they can check if one of them was connected to the Tor network at the time of the "fact" but as me and others people are using Tor for online privacy without any intention of misuse against anybody, using Tor is not a proof of misuse and is most of the time not done for bad intention. Of course some questioning about a suspect using Tor at the same hour would be rightful in this particular situation, anyway (like I was questioned). All time I also come with a sheet of paper explaining Tor a little bit deeply, what are the motivation of the teams and people behind this project, (even in front of misuses that we are, of course, not proud of having on the Tor network, even if without the Tor network, those misuses would have been done by another way). In France I Of course sometimes the agent is not very happy about the Tor Network as the investigations is likely to fail because of the Tor Network efficiency. When the misuse is real and obviously bad, nobody can be happy of it ! In all those cases, my words are honest and true; as we shouldn't be ashamed of participating to projects aiming to a better word and more freedom, but shouldn't be happy of misuses, my personal preference is to be understanding and true. I also tell them that I'm participating, with my computers, to others scientific projects like World Community Grid (explaining it's about cancer research and a lot of others subjects) : It can be seen as "not related" but it is, as that's the way we are volunteers to the Tor Network ! Here's for my feedback ! It's very personal of course, I hope nobody would copy it without feeling it :) I'm just expressing my own feeling on those situations, if it can help everybody to better understand those cases. Best regards ! Julien ROBIN On 31/10/2016 14:25, Juuso Lapinlampi wrote:
Putting the word out: I was interrogated by the Finnish police today for multiple alleged counts (15+) of identity crimes, fraud and attempts of fraud. The invitation letter to be interrogated was sent out on 2016-10-21 and received by me on 2016-10-25. Today is 2016-10-31.
The police suspects me because of an "IP-address assigned to my name", which I can't confirm or deny to have a relation to me. As a suspect, I was not told what this aclaimed IP-address was on a specific date to my knowledge. It is only speculation if these allegations wrongly against me have something to do with my relation with the Tor community or activism about digital rights online.
Pending ongoing investigation, I am not allowed by law to share more specific details about to the investigation. I'd be glad to reveal more details about the case once the investigation is over and share/hear how I became a suspect, once I know about it. (Note that my story is at least slightly opinionated.)
I had a witness with me and I feel like my rights were being violated during the interrogation. The officer (not to be named publicly in respect for privacy) didn't want to allow me to write down their badge number by taking the badge away from me while trying to write down the numbers. The officer looked slightly anxious.
After refusing to comment on few questions (to which I have a legal right as a suspect), soon after me and my belongings with me were searched for aclaimed "security reasons" and "making sure I'm not recording this interrogation (with a phone)". I'll let you decide on the implications on unwarranted searches and individual legal protection. (See supreme court decision KKO:1990:36.)
I audibly and multiple times in calm manner protested to not consent to searches, but alas it happened against my will without being suspected of wrongdoing at the police station in front of my witness. I didn't physically resist but also didn't voluntarily help the officer.
The officer asked me inappropriate questions which were not related to the investigation. I was asked about my previous involvement with the police, how much I knew about the law and unsolicited advice about how "it will be easier for me if I talked". I demanded the officer to write down every question since the beginning of interrogation to the interrogation minutes, including the inappropriate ones, but the officer refused, trying to make up a fake reason how they were "irrelevant".
The officer raised their voice once or twice during the 45 minutes of interrogation, apparently angry that I would not "make a confession" or "help out and tell more" to prove innocence. Confronting the officer again with a simple question "am I a suspect or a witness" to confirm my position, I was confirmed again that I was a suspect in the case. Subtly reminding that "I have my rights" that should be respected, the officer replied among the lines of "I have my rights too" with disrespect.
After the interrogation minutes did not rightfully represent what was actually questioned, the only sensible thing to me was to not sign the minutes. The officer after the officer made threatening claims about how I "would be going to court" over this, but didn't spend too much effort on trying to get my signature.
Once the interrogation was concluded, the officer made an unsolicited comment of "gladly not seeing people like [me] often". I told that I would be in contact with my lawyers.
I am glad that I was not detained in a cell or arrested, which in my opinion I can likely attribute to having a witness with me. Looking back at what just happened at the police station, I should have demanded a lawyer immediately to the interrogation after having my rights violated, but I'm relying on my witness for now to make a testimony if necessary.
I repeat that I absolutely deny being guilty of any suspected crimes. Be safe out there, tor-relays@ and all. (I have legal support behind me and have never been particularly worried about the investigation or outcome of this case.)
Proof of invitation letter: https://wubthecaptain.eu/files/legal/2016-10-21-alleged-fraud-identity-crime... _______________________________________________ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
An excellent approach
-----Original Message----- From: julien.robin28@free.fr Sent: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 23:16:53 +0100 To: tor-relays@lists.torproject.org Subject: Re: [tor-relays] Interrogated by Finnish police for alleged idendity crimes, fraud and attempts of fraud
Hi,
With the 3 big exit nodes I had in France (about 30MB/s in both direction for each of them), I got called by police a lot of time (may be 10 times approximately ? I do not really count anymore) on investigations about misdeed that was committed from IP addresses of my Tor relays (95.130.9.190 and 95.130.9.89 mainly, at Digicube, not running anymore since June, 2015). No call about the Online.net one (62.210.206.25, now Relay only since January, 2015), which was as big as the 2 others and Exit too, but the ISP is well known as servers and website big provider in France so I guess they realize it's an exit node before calling me. The "facts" were also, most of the time, fraud and attempts of fraud but also slander one time.
I was most of the time called as suspect because IP are related to my name (because I was leasing those servers), as for a home connection in their point of view (not aware that those IP are dedicated servers IP). Then I simply explain this in appropriate terms. After some times, depending on the agent, for new investigations I'm sometimes "heard" as witness. And most of the time the meeting is fine.
Each time, I explain that my servers are rented in my name, and that I use them for volunteer participation to a free proxies and VPN network called Tor. I then give some details and explanations about what is Tor, who created it, what are the goals of the project (about protection of expression in bad countries and censorship avoidance, by accessing the same Internet that others do, pricacy protection too), and yes, the misuses... and that these are discouraging misuse and it is not the reason why we participate in this network (far from it !). Then I give the IP of those servers (and one of them is the reason why they called me). And I explain that they are computers with a very fast bandwidth, located in datacenters (Rennes, Vitry...) that can be accessed and configured remotely, like a remote desktop.
When they ask the question about logs and how to find the author of the fact, my answer is that (unfortunately in that case), Tor is designed as it's not possible for anybody to find who is the IP address from where the traffic originated. It's very secure for those who need to use it. Of course I tell them that if they have suspects in the entourage of the victim, they can check if one of them was connected to the Tor network at the time of the "fact" but as me and others people are using Tor for online privacy without any intention of misuse against anybody, using Tor is not a proof of misuse and is most of the time not done for bad intention. Of course some questioning about a suspect using Tor at the same hour would be rightful in this particular situation, anyway (like I was questioned).
All time I also come with a sheet of paper explaining Tor a little bit deeply, what are the motivation of the teams and people behind this project, (even in front of misuses that we are, of course, not proud of having on the Tor network, even if without the Tor network, those misuses would have been done by another way). In France I
Of course sometimes the agent is not very happy about the Tor Network as the investigations is likely to fail because of the Tor Network efficiency. When the misuse is real and obviously bad, nobody can be happy of it !
In all those cases, my words are honest and true; as we shouldn't be ashamed of participating to projects aiming to a better word and more freedom, but shouldn't be happy of misuses, my personal preference is to be understanding and true. I also tell them that I'm participating, with my computers, to others scientific projects like World Community Grid (explaining it's about cancer research and a lot of others subjects) : It can be seen as "not related" but it is, as that's the way we are volunteers to the Tor Network !
Here's for my feedback ! It's very personal of course, I hope nobody would copy it without feeling it :) I'm just expressing my own feeling on those situations, if it can help everybody to better understand those cases.
Best regards !
Julien ROBIN
On 31/10/2016 14:25, Juuso Lapinlampi wrote:
Putting the word out: I was interrogated by the Finnish police today for multiple alleged counts (15+) of identity crimes, fraud and attempts of fraud. The invitation letter to be interrogated was sent out on 2016-10-21 and received by me on 2016-10-25. Today is 2016-10-31.
The police suspects me because of an "IP-address assigned to my name", which I can't confirm or deny to have a relation to me. As a suspect, I was not told what this aclaimed IP-address was on a specific date to my knowledge. It is only speculation if these allegations wrongly against me have something to do with my relation with the Tor community or activism about digital rights online.
Pending ongoing investigation, I am not allowed by law to share more specific details about to the investigation. I'd be glad to reveal more details about the case once the investigation is over and share/hear how I became a suspect, once I know about it. (Note that my story is at least slightly opinionated.)
I had a witness with me and I feel like my rights were being violated during the interrogation. The officer (not to be named publicly in respect for privacy) didn't want to allow me to write down their badge number by taking the badge away from me while trying to write down the numbers. The officer looked slightly anxious.
After refusing to comment on few questions (to which I have a legal right as a suspect), soon after me and my belongings with me were searched for aclaimed "security reasons" and "making sure I'm not recording this interrogation (with a phone)". I'll let you decide on the implications on unwarranted searches and individual legal protection. (See supreme court decision KKO:1990:36.)
I audibly and multiple times in calm manner protested to not consent to searches, but alas it happened against my will without being suspected of wrongdoing at the police station in front of my witness. I didn't physically resist but also didn't voluntarily help the officer.
The officer asked me inappropriate questions which were not related to the investigation. I was asked about my previous involvement with the police, how much I knew about the law and unsolicited advice about how "it will be easier for me if I talked". I demanded the officer to write down every question since the beginning of interrogation to the interrogation minutes, including the inappropriate ones, but the officer refused, trying to make up a fake reason how they were "irrelevant".
The officer raised their voice once or twice during the 45 minutes of interrogation, apparently angry that I would not "make a confession" or "help out and tell more" to prove innocence. Confronting the officer again with a simple question "am I a suspect or a witness" to confirm my position, I was confirmed again that I was a suspect in the case. Subtly reminding that "I have my rights" that should be respected, the officer replied among the lines of "I have my rights too" with disrespect.
After the interrogation minutes did not rightfully represent what was actually questioned, the only sensible thing to me was to not sign the minutes. The officer after the officer made threatening claims about how I "would be going to court" over this, but didn't spend too much effort on trying to get my signature.
Once the interrogation was concluded, the officer made an unsolicited comment of "gladly not seeing people like [me] often". I told that I would be in contact with my lawyers.
I am glad that I was not detained in a cell or arrested, which in my opinion I can likely attribute to having a witness with me. Looking back at what just happened at the police station, I should have demanded a lawyer immediately to the interrogation after having my rights violated, but I'm relying on my witness for now to make a testimony if necessary.
I repeat that I absolutely deny being guilty of any suspected crimes. Be safe out there, tor-relays@ and all. (I have legal support behind me and have never been particularly worried about the investigation or outcome of this case.)
Proof of invitation letter: https://wubthecaptain.eu/files/legal/2016-10-21-alleged-fraud-identity-crime... _______________________________________________ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
_______________________________________________ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
Hi Volker, A French text of law also exists for the following protection (following lines) but there is some others laws that are making it not completely clear, unfortunately. You're not responsible about information that have been transmitted trough your Internet access if : -You're not originating the transmission -You're not selecting the recipient of the transmission -You're not selecting and not modifying the transmitted information It's a little bit known because of intellectual property law infringement ("HADOPI" here). Some years ago, when downloading movies and music with Peer to peer, if there were questions and complaint people simply could say "it's not me, somebody is likely using my IP trough WiFi". So they written a law saying that you become responsible of "the faulty protection of your access", responsible of having neglected it, with a possible sanction about it. That means that today, you're supposed to have logs and identifications about "who is doing what" if you operate a public Internet access, and one time it's a reproach that I had orally about Tor. I didn't done a lot of research on this subject in order to know if Tor's case is fine about this law or not, since it was not a written and formal comment. Here's for the technical points. With hindsight : Of course the law have been made in order to apply on movies and music download, and as a lot of laws, it can also be useful for information services in case of misdeed; and lot of people are agreeing with it, after all. Finally it also have a repercussion about things like Tor; and I believe that not a lot of people here know about Tor. People aren't always realizing that this kind of laws (supposed to be done "for people and on behalf of people"), are written out of any control from people, and are almost irreversible. And people never know how much things those law can touch. Few month ago with the "Emergency state" law about Islamic terrorism, ecology activists and volunteers had "assigned residence orders" during COP21, because this law is talking about security and trouble avoidance. Then, one can always say that it's good, but obviously I think nobody realize what we are loosing because of this kind of security laws. Even if climbing and eating flowers with big signs remains, most of the time, ineffective (as change.org and avaaz is most of the time), since elected persons who write the laws don't even care about it (and that's the biggest problem we have today). In our case, elected people are doing the law. For better laws, the only solution is better elected people, and that's a big problem too ;) But then it's not related anymore to what we are discussing here (or just as it's about laws and fairness). On 01/11/2016 10:22, Volker Mink wrote:
When reading this i am glad i live in germany. We still have some laws which protect operators of TOR-Exits :)
https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/tmg/__5.html https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/tmg/__8.html https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/tmg/__15.html (perhaps try to translate them with google)
*Gesendet:* Dienstag, 01. November 2016 um 01:03 Uhr *Von:* I <beatthebastards@inbox.com> *An:* tor-relays@lists.torproject.org *Betreff:* Re: [tor-relays] Interrogated by Finnish police for alleged idendity crimes, fraud and attempts of fraud An excellent approach
-----Original Message----- From: julien.robin28@free.fr Sent: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 23:16:53 +0100 To: tor-relays@lists.torproject.org Subject: Re: [tor-relays] Interrogated by Finnish police for alleged idendity crimes, fraud and attempts of fraud
Hi,
With the 3 big exit nodes I had in France (about 30MB/s in both direction for each of them), I got called by police a lot of time (may be 10 times approximately ? I do not really count anymore) on investigations about misdeed that was committed from IP addresses of my Tor relays (95.130.9.190 and 95.130.9.89 mainly, at Digicube, not running anymore since June, 2015). No call about the Online.net one (62.210.206.25, now Relay only since January, 2015), which was as big as the 2 others and Exit too, but the ISP is well known as servers and website big provider in France so I guess they realize it's an exit node before calling me. The "facts" were also, most of the time, fraud and attempts of fraud but also slander one time.
I was most of the time called as suspect because IP are related to my name (because I was leasing those servers), as for a home connection in their point of view (not aware that those IP are dedicated servers IP). Then I simply explain this in appropriate terms. After some times, depending on the agent, for new investigations I'm sometimes "heard" as witness. And most of the time the meeting is fine.
Each time, I explain that my servers are rented in my name, and that I use them for volunteer participation to a free proxies and VPN network called Tor. I then give some details and explanations about what is Tor, who created it, what are the goals of the project (about protection of expression in bad countries and censorship avoidance, by accessing the same Internet that others do, pricacy protection too), and yes, the misuses... and that these are discouraging misuse and it is not the reason why we participate in this network (far from it !). Then I give the IP of those servers (and one of them is the reason why they called me). And I explain that they are computers with a very fast bandwidth, located in datacenters (Rennes, Vitry...) that can be accessed and configured remotely, like a remote desktop.
When they ask the question about logs and how to find the author of the fact, my answer is that (unfortunately in that case), Tor is designed as it's not possible for anybody to find who is the IP address from where the traffic originated. It's very secure for those who need to use it. Of course I tell them that if they have suspects in the entourage of the victim, they can check if one of them was connected to the Tor network at the time of the "fact" but as me and others people are using Tor for online privacy without any intention of misuse against anybody, using Tor is not a proof of misuse and is most of the time not done for bad intention. Of course some questioning about a suspect using Tor at the same hour would be rightful in this particular situation, anyway (like I was questioned).
All time I also come with a sheet of paper explaining Tor a little bit deeply, what are the motivation of the teams and people behind this project, (even in front of misuses that we are, of course, not proud of having on the Tor network, even if without the Tor network, those misuses would have been done by another way). In France I
Of course sometimes the agent is not very happy about the Tor Network as the investigations is likely to fail because of the Tor Network efficiency. When the misuse is real and obviously bad, nobody can be happy of it !
In all those cases, my words are honest and true; as we shouldn't be ashamed of participating to projects aiming to a better word and more freedom, but shouldn't be happy of misuses, my personal preference is to be understanding and true. I also tell them that I'm participating, with my computers, to others scientific projects like World Community Grid (explaining it's about cancer research and a lot of others subjects) : It can be seen as "not related" but it is, as that's the way we are volunteers to the Tor Network !
Here's for my feedback ! It's very personal of course, I hope nobody would copy it without feeling it :) I'm just expressing my own feeling on those situations, if it can help everybody to better understand those cases.
Best regards !
Julien ROBIN
On 31/10/2016 14:25, Juuso Lapinlampi wrote:
Putting the word out: I was interrogated by the Finnish police today for multiple alleged counts (15+) of identity crimes, fraud and attempts of fraud. The invitation letter to be interrogated was sent out on 2016-10-21 and received by me on 2016-10-25. Today is 2016-10-31.
The police suspects me because of an "IP-address assigned to my name", which I can't confirm or deny to have a relation to me. As a suspect, I was not told what this aclaimed IP-address was on a specific date to my knowledge. It is only speculation if these allegations wrongly against me have something to do with my relation with the Tor community or activism about digital rights online.
Pending ongoing investigation, I am not allowed by law to share more specific details about to the investigation. I'd be glad to reveal more details about the case once the investigation is over and share/hear how I became a suspect, once I know about it. (Note that my story is at least slightly opinionated.)
I had a witness with me and I feel like my rights were being violated during the interrogation. The officer (not to be named publicly in respect for privacy) didn't want to allow me to write down their badge number by taking the badge away from me while trying to write down the numbers. The officer looked slightly anxious.
After refusing to comment on few questions (to which I have a legal right as a suspect), soon after me and my belongings with me were searched for aclaimed "security reasons" and "making sure I'm not recording this interrogation (with a phone)". I'll let you decide on the implications on unwarranted searches and individual legal protection. (See supreme court decision KKO:1990:36.)
I audibly and multiple times in calm manner protested to not consent to searches, but alas it happened against my will without being suspected of wrongdoing at the police station in front of my witness. I didn't physically resist but also didn't voluntarily help the officer.
The officer asked me inappropriate questions which were not related to the investigation. I was asked about my previous involvement with the police, how much I knew about the law and unsolicited advice about how "it will be easier for me if I talked". I demanded the officer to write down every question since the beginning of interrogation to the interrogation minutes, including the inappropriate ones, but the officer refused, trying to make up a fake reason how they were "irrelevant".
The officer raised their voice once or twice during the 45 minutes of interrogation, apparently angry that I would not "make a confession" or "help out and tell more" to prove innocence. Confronting the officer again with a simple question "am I a suspect or a witness" to confirm my position, I was confirmed again that I was a suspect in the case. Subtly reminding that "I have my rights" that should be respected, the officer replied among the lines of "I have my rights too" with disrespect.
After the interrogation minutes did not rightfully represent what was actually questioned, the only sensible thing to me was to not sign the minutes. The officer after the officer made threatening claims about how I "would be going to court" over this, but didn't spend too much effort on trying to get my signature.
Once the interrogation was concluded, the officer made an unsolicited comment of "gladly not seeing people like [me] often". I told that I would be in contact with my lawyers.
I am glad that I was not detained in a cell or arrested, which in my opinion I can likely attribute to having a witness with me. Looking back at what just happened at the police station, I should have demanded a lawyer immediately to the interrogation after having my rights violated, but I'm relying on my witness for now to make a testimony if necessary.
I repeat that I absolutely deny being guilty of any suspected crimes. Be safe out there, tor-relays@ and all. (I have legal support behind me and have never been particularly worried about the investigation or outcome of this case.)
Proof of invitation letter:
https://wubthecaptain.eu/files/legal/2016-10-21-alleged-fraud-identity-crime...
_______________________________________________ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
_______________________________________________ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
_______________________________________________ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
_______________________________________________ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
Agree, trying to explain why people like Tor operators and/or volunteers on WGC are giving time, network/cpu computing, money... to preserve and help human rights, health... can be a good way. Trying to show them what the Tor network is, why, the goal... the easiest possible, because many of them are not geeks. Good luck... Julien ROBIN :
In all those cases, my words are honest and true; as we shouldn't be ashamed of participating to projects aiming to a better word and more freedom, but shouldn't be happy of misuses, my personal preference is to be understanding and true. I also tell them that I'm participating, with my computers, to others scientific projects like World Community Grid (explaining it's about cancer research and a lot of others subjects) : It can be seen as "not related" but it is, as that's the way we are volunteers to the Tor Network !
-- Petrusko EBE23AE5
On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 01:25:44PM +0000, Juuso Lapinlampi wrote:
Putting the word out: I was interrogated by the Finnish police today for multiple alleged counts (15+) of identity crimes, fraud and attempts of fraud. The invitation letter to be interrogated was sent out on 2016-10-21 and received by me on 2016-10-25. Today is 2016-10-31.
The police suspects me because of an "IP-address assigned to my name",
I received news today: I'm no longer a suspect as of 2016-11-04 and the investigation has been frozen, so I can talk more freely about this in the public. I operate few Tor relays/exits and have also done so earlier in Finland. There are no other known suspects in the case, so I can only confirm my assumption this case was about one of my Tor exits relaying anonymous traffic from someone. I did not personally commit any crimes, but so far it's easy to guess the offender's nationality from the description. I still have not been told what the aclaimed IP-address has been, but I know for sure what my IP-addresses were assigned on the date of these alleged crimes. Inputting the IP-addresses to ExoneraTor [1] confirms I was operating an exit on that date, which would have been my defense if necessary. One of them is a residential IP-address, something that has been echoed many times on this list to not be such a good idea for exits. I'm also aware of 205 malware infections/botnet incidents on that specific date of crime being relayed through one of my exits, according to AutoReporter abuse logs. (Thanks to my ISP for helping out.) It will be hard to say if these have any relevance to the case or not. I also have a /29 IPv4-address space and /56 or /64 IPv6-address space re-assigned to my name in the RIPE database with full contact info and abuse-c. I've been informed of the exact dates, the subject of alleged crimes and their counts, the name and birthdate of the injured party, the targets of the alleged crimes, and finally parts of detail what was fraudulently gained or attempted to be gained. In total, the offender might face 20+ years in prison if (and when hopefully) caught and deemed guilty. I would still operate a Tor exit in Finland again, only if it was not so difficult (and slightly expensive) to get good colocation and connectivity. That's as much as I can tell right now, while the alleged crime is still "living" and not expired. I'll reply to your replies soon if needed. [1]: https://exonerator.torproject.org/
On Tue, Nov 01, 2016 at 10:22:39AM +0100, Volker Mink wrote:
When reading this i am glad i live in germany. We still have some laws which protect operators of TOR-Exits :)
https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/tmg/__5.html
https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/tmg/__8.html
https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/tmg/__15.html
(perhaps try to translate them with google)
I did not look these up, but I can assume you are talking about limited liability for Tor relay operators and other service providers. Those laws are set on European Union level I think, which all country members of EU must set in law. In Finland, that is "Tietoyhteiskuntakaari 7.11.2014/917, 182 § Vastuuvapaus tiedonsiirto- ja verkkoyhteyspalveluissa". Similar limited liability clauses can be found in the United States law.
Heippa, thanks a lot for your case description. You're right, the laws should be very similar in all EU countries. Very strange story, you are telling about. Especially, that they won't give you the IP address. Normally, no criminal fraud like this, would made with a "real" IP address. I just remember my acquaintance with the Finnish police in Helsinki Satama after I come back from a trip to Tallinn. Don't want to know, how it would be with an interrogate at a German police station. Hope to hear from you soon. So, I wish you good luck. Paljon onnea. Kiitos! Terveiset, On 08.11.2016 16:00, Juuso Lapinlampi wrote:
On Tue, Nov 01, 2016 at 10:22:39AM +0100, Volker Mink wrote:
When reading this i am glad i live in germany. We still have some laws which protect operators of TOR-Exits :)
https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/tmg/__5.html
https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/tmg/__8.html
https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/tmg/__15.html
(perhaps try to translate them with google)
I did not look these up, but I can assume you are talking about limited liability for Tor relay operators and other service providers.
Those laws are set on European Union level I think, which all country members of EU must set in law. In Finland, that is "Tietoyhteiskuntakaari 7.11.2014/917, 182 § Vastuuvapaus tiedonsiirto- ja verkkoyhteyspalveluissa".
Similar limited liability clauses can be found in the United States law. _______________________________________________ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
participants (8)
-
Diarmaid McManus -
diffusae -
I -
Julien ROBIN -
Juuso Lapinlampi -
Marco Predicatori -
Petrusko -
Volker Mink