<div dir="ltr"><div>> <span style="line-height:1.5">I think you have a much, much more optimistic view of the police than I</span></div><div><span style="line-height:1.5">> </span><span style="line-height:1.5">do. The US police would never protect whistleblowers.</span></div><div><span style="line-height:1.5"><br></span></div><div><span style="line-height:1.5">Totally hear you. But for what it's worth the </span><span style="line-height:1.5">United States's Witness Protection Program is a potential counter-example. Admittedly they focus on retaliation from organized crime, but if said organized crime ring grew to include a few branches of the US govt, this would certainly be within their purview. (Full disclosure: I don't actually know anything about the Witness Protection Program beyond what Wikipedia says.)</span></div><div><span style="line-height:1.5"><br></span></div><div><span style="line-height:1.5">-V</span></div><div><span style="line-height:1.5"><br></span></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 9:21 AM Alison Macrina <<a href="mailto:macrina@riseup.net">macrina@riseup.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Virgil Griffith:<br>
> Fleshing out your analogy. What if said small New Hampshire town's police<br>
> dept wanted to run a Tor relay and whistle blowing site, and then wanted to<br>
> network with the Tor-teachers community to better teach their citizens how<br>
> to safely use their new whistle-blowing site?<br>
<br>
I think you have a much, much more optimistic view of the police than I<br>
do. The US police would never protect whistleblowers.<br>
<br>
Let me put it this way. I teach Tor because I am interested in<br>
collective liberation. The police are a hindrance to that. I only bring<br>
them into my work if it is absolutely necessary.<br>
<br>
> Do we help the NH police dept? Should they excluded from this space/list?<br>
> Would they be allowed to attend the Tor meeting to share what they learned<br>
> about teaching Tor to local New Hampshirians?<br>
<br>
No one is prohibited from attending meetings. There are probably already<br>
cops at our meetings. And on this list! But that doesn't mean I'm going<br>
to be the one to work with them.<br>
<br>
><br>
> If you think this is outlandish, I don't think it's beyond the pale to get<br>
> see like this done in Singapore.<br>
><br>
> -V<br>
> On Wed, 21 Oct 2015 at 06:20 Alison Macrina <<a href="mailto:macrina@riseup.net" target="_blank">macrina@riseup.net</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
>> Virgil Griffith:<br>
>>>> Who are you worried about excluding? The spies?<br>
>>>> The police? The ISPs? The advertisers? Eric Schmidt?<br>
>>>> Let them be excluded.<br>
>>><br>
>>> I claim that, when teaching Tor in East Asia we emphasized<br>
>>> pro-whistleblowing (which local govts and police support) over<br>
>>> pro-democracy, Tor becomes a technology The Man could get behind,<br>
>>> encourage, and even teach.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Putting aside questions of whether The Man is liked, given the vast<br>
>> numbers<br>
>>> of people living in these jurisdictions (not to the mention the chance to<br>
>>> drastically expand the anonymity set!), I vote, on purely pragmatic<br>
>>> grounds, to include the police, the ISPs, etc.<br>
>>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Wellllllll, that's why I said "let them be excluded", because what I<br>
>> meant is that if our political language includes critiques of power and<br>
>> that gives them sad fee-fees, I really don't care. But I agree that it<br>
>> can be tactically useful to educate the police about Tor. Not just for<br>
>> expanding the anonymity set, but making it easier to get support for Tor<br>
>> in the wider community. Like when you want to run a Tor relay in a small<br>
>> New Hampshire town, and you don't want the police to get all upset about<br>
>> it. :)<br>
>><br>
>> However, let me be clear -- that should be done PUBLICLY. Closed door<br>
>> meetings with any of these adversaries is extremely sketchy and is<br>
>> damaging to the trust of the Tor community.<br>
>><br>
>> Also, let me be doubly clear: fuck the police.<br>
>><br>
>> ACAB,<br>
>><br>
>> Alison<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>>> -V<br>
>>> On Wed, 21 Oct 2015 at 02:03 Alison Macrina <<a href="mailto:macrina@riseup.net" target="_blank">macrina@riseup.net</a>> wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>>> Just a quick note that it's helpful if digest readers change the subject<br>
>>>> line so that we know what they're responding to.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> kbaegis:<br>
>>>>> Okay Alison. Fine. I really wasn't looking to pick a fight, so I'm<br>
>> not<br>
>>>>> going to address weird arguments about excluding Eric Schmidt from TOR.<br>
>>>>> When hyperbole and extreme arguments rule, you have a tyranny of<br>
>> whoever<br>
>>>>> can produce the most extreme rhetoric. It's sophistry at its finest.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> I'll message you directly.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Thanks,<br>
>>>>> Stephen<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> I'm not trying to pick a fight, nor was I being hyperbolic. I named<br>
>>>> those adversaries because they are the ones we make space for when we<br>
>>>> say that the conversation should not be political. My argument was not<br>
>>>> fallacious. I think we simply disagree.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> I don't want this conversation to become hostile, so perhaps we should<br>
>>>> conclude it. I think it's fair to say that folks on this list do not<br>
>>>> want to exclude politics from the discussion.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Alison<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>>> On 10/20/15 10:58 AM, <a href="mailto:tor-teachers-request@lists.torproject.org" target="_blank">tor-teachers-request@lists.torproject.org</a> wrote:<br>
>>>>>> Send tor-teachers mailing list submissions to<br>
>>>>>> <a href="mailto:tor-teachers@lists.torproject.org" target="_blank">tor-teachers@lists.torproject.org</a><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br>
>>>>>><br>
>> <a href="https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-teachers" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-teachers</a><br>
>>>>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br>
>>>>>> <a href="mailto:tor-teachers-request@lists.torproject.org" target="_blank">tor-teachers-request@lists.torproject.org</a><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> You can reach the person managing the list at<br>
>>>>>> <a href="mailto:tor-teachers-owner@lists.torproject.org" target="_blank">tor-teachers-owner@lists.torproject.org</a><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>
>>>>>> than "Re: Contents of tor-teachers digest..."<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Today's Topics:<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> 1. Re: tor teachers -- politics (Alison Macrina)<br>
>>>>>> 2. Re: Extra Presentations to add to Wiki (sajolida)<br>
>>>>>> 3. Re: tor-teachers Digest, Vol 2, Issue 13 (kbaegis)<br>
>>>>>> 4. Re: tor teachers -- politics (Hugo Maxwell Connery)<br>
>>>>>> 5. Re: tor-teachers - politics (Alison Macrina)<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Message: 1<br>
>>>>>> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 14:31:15 +0000<br>
>>>>>> From: Alison Macrina <<a href="mailto:macrina@riseup.net" target="_blank">macrina@riseup.net</a>><br>
>>>>>> To: <a href="mailto:tor-teachers@lists.torproject.org" target="_blank">tor-teachers@lists.torproject.org</a><br>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [tor-teachers] tor teachers -- politics<br>
>>>>>> Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:56265033.6040800@riseup.net" target="_blank">56265033.6040800@riseup.net</a>><br>
>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Nathan of Guardian:<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 20, 2015, at 06:55 AM, Jacob Appelbaum wrote:<br>
>>>>>>>> Dear Nathan and everyone,<br>
>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>> I think as a community of teachers and trainers, we'll have to all<br>
>> be<br>
>>>>>>>>> open to the fact that we are coming from very different<br>
>> backgrounds,<br>
>>>> and<br>
>>>>>>>>> working with very different communities. I don't think anyone is<br>
>>>>>>>>> actively trying to inject their own personal "P" politics into the<br>
>>>> list,<br>
>>>>>>>>> but I am sure many kinds of politics will come up, as an aspect of<br>
>>>>>>>>> empowering users who are working against a system that seeks to<br>
>>>>>>>>> disempower them.<br>
>>>>>>>> I'm totally on board with everything you've said excluding the very<br>
>>>>>>>> last bit here. Forgive me for going down the rabbit hole with you.<br>
>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>> We're not working against any system directly. Our efforts are not<br>
>>>>>>>> mere pushback. Sure, we hope to stop surveillance and censorship<br>
>>>>>>>> systems from harming Tor users. The crux here isn't just about<br>
>>>>>>>> protesting "the man" or a specific political party or something<br>
>> along<br>
>>>>>>>> those lines. Rather we've built an alternative and we're teaching<br>
>>>>>>>> people how to utilize it in their lives.<br>
>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>> The result is of course political and there is a question of how the<br>
>>>>>>>> new system embodies certain political ideals. In our new system we<br>
>>>>>>>> build on the radical politics of IP networking, we have a right to<br>
>>>>>>>> form and hold ideas without interference, we have a right to free<br>
>>>>>>>> speech and a right to read, we have anonymity of various kinds. We<br>
>>>>>>>> have this as an intentional outcome of strong cryptography where<br>
>>>>>>>> everyone is able to run or to use this new infrastructure. That<br>
>> isn't<br>
>>>>>>>> a matter of just being against a system, it is about iterating and<br>
>>>>>>>> changing the current systems, while also providing alternatives that<br>
>>>>>>>> coexist and which are capable of replacing older, less autonomy<br>
>>>>>>>> respecting, systems which are oppressive.<br>
>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> Here, here!<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Thanks for this, Nathan and Jake.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Alison<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> ------------------------------<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Message: 2<br>
>>>>>> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 11:54:18 +0000<br>
>>>>>> From: sajolida <<a href="mailto:sajolida@pimienta.org" target="_blank">sajolida@pimienta.org</a>><br>
>>>>>> To: "List to be used by Tor teachers and trainers to build a<br>
>>>>>> community, circulate training materials and get feedback"<br>
>>>>>> <<a href="mailto:tor-teachers@lists.torproject.org" target="_blank">tor-teachers@lists.torproject.org</a>><br>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [tor-teachers] Extra Presentations to add to Wiki<br>
>>>>>> Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:56262B6A.5040204@pimienta.org" target="_blank">56262B6A.5040204@pimienta.org</a>><br>
>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Dylan Cooper:<br>
>>>>>>> Figured I'd move this to a new thread to see if anyone is willing to<br>
>>>> divide<br>
>>>>>>> some of the leftover presentations Alison referenced earlier[1] that<br>
>>>> have<br>
>>>>>>> been accumulated over time.<br>
>>>>>> Hi,<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> First of all, let my introduce myself as I've been lurking on this<br>
>> list<br>
>>>>>> for a while but this is my first post. I'm working on Tails where I do<br>
>>>>>> most of the technical writing and a bit of UX too.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> I'm not exactly sure why you're mentioning this list of presentations<br>
>>>>>> from Tor but I thought I'd point you to the repository we have for our<br>
>>>>>> presentations about Tails if that can be useful:<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> - Online artifacts (source and HTML):<br>
>>>>>> <a href="https://tails.boum.org/contribute/how/promote/material/slides/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://tails.boum.org/contribute/how/promote/material/slides/</a><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> - Git repository:<br>
>>>>>> <a href="https://git-tails.immerda.ch/promotion-material/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://git-tails.immerda.ch/promotion-material/</a><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> ------------------------------<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Message: 3<br>
>>>>>> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 10:10:27 -0500<br>
>>>>>> From: kbaegis <<a href="mailto:kbaegis@gmail.com" target="_blank">kbaegis@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>>>>> To: <a href="mailto:tor-teachers@lists.torproject.org" target="_blank">tor-teachers@lists.torproject.org</a><br>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [tor-teachers] tor-teachers Digest, Vol 2, Issue 13<br>
>>>>>> Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:56265963.7090109@gmail.com" target="_blank">56265963.7090109@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Thanks for asking what I think Jacob,<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> My personal stance is that when we start including political<br>
>> discussion<br>
>>>>>> we implicitly begin excluding people. Rational people, given the same<br>
>>>>>> evidence, can reach the same conclusion. Opinions simply don't work<br>
>>>>>> this way. You can't cite a reference, or make argument based on<br>
>> agreed<br>
>>>>>> upon fact. Well informed opinions, while based upon fact, imply a<br>
>>>>>> certain attachment to the idea.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Now let's play with an example:<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> "The founders wanted a democracy."<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> I think this is faulty decorum. Has the above statement advanced the<br>
>>>>>> discussion in any meaningful way? If there's a disagreement, is there<br>
>>>>>> any particular idea contained above that I can ask for a reference to<br>
>>>>>> formally refute or am I stuck arguing about the difference between a<br>
>>>>>> republic, democracy- and even more basically if a group of politicians<br>
>>>>>> can agree on /anything./ It's easy to state opinions which require no<br>
>>>>>> rigor or substance.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> I think that it's chiefly about exclusion. It seems sensible to me<br>
>> that<br>
>>>>>> TOR benefits from any member- not simply those who subscribe to a<br>
>>>>>> certain ideology. You absolutely need a dominant culture in the<br>
>>>>>> development community. That's sensible. I would argue that this is<br>
>>>>>> counterproductive on the teaching front.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> What does everyone else think?<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> All of this aside, I was hoping that we could create some coordination<br>
>>>>>> for classes. Again, I already fly around the country teaching. I'd<br>
>>>>>> love to be able to teach TOR as well. I just need students.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Thanks,<br>
>>>>>> Stephen<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> On 10/20/15 7:00 AM, <a href="mailto:tor-teachers-request@lists.torproject.org" target="_blank">tor-teachers-request@lists.torproject.org</a> wrote:<br>
>>>>>>> I feel that if we don't understand the principles behind Tor, we may<br>
>>>>>>> have trouble teaching and evaluating related systems. The principles<br>
>>>>>>> behind Tor which are very political in most contexts are why we're<br>
>>>>>>> never going to see a backdoor inserted. Backdoor free crypto is a<br>
>> very<br>
>>>>>>> serious political stance in my view.<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> I'd still like to know what the original poster meant by political in<br>
>>>>>>> the context of this mailing list. It seems that we should be open and<br>
>>>>>>> willing to hear this definition and to use it as a starting point.<br>
>>>>>>> there may be a set of people who consider themselves "non-political"<br>
>>>>>>> when teaching Tor and I'd like to ensure that we don't exclude them.<br>
>>>>>>> First though, I'd really like to hear what that means from someone<br>
>> who<br>
>>>>>>> feels this describes their views or desires for this list.<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> All the best,<br>
>>>>>>> Jacob<br>
>>>>>> -------------- next part --------------<br>
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>>>><br>
>> <a href="http://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-teachers/attachments/20151020/8021f9a7/attachment-0001.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-teachers/attachments/20151020/8021f9a7/attachment-0001.html</a><br>
>>>>><br>
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>>>><br>
>> <a href="http://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-teachers/attachments/20151020/8021f9a7/attachment-0001.key" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-teachers/attachments/20151020/8021f9a7/attachment-0001.key</a><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>>> -------------- next part --------------<br>
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>>>><br>
>> <a href="http://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-teachers/attachments/20151020/8021f9a7/attachment-0001.sig" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-teachers/attachments/20151020/8021f9a7/attachment-0001.sig</a><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> ------------------------------<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Message: 4<br>
>>>>>> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 15:17:35 +0000<br>
>>>>>> From: Hugo Maxwell Connery <<a href="mailto:hmco@env.dtu.dk" target="_blank">hmco@env.dtu.dk</a>><br>
>>>>>> To: "<a href="mailto:tor-teachers@lists.torproject.org" target="_blank">tor-teachers@lists.torproject.org</a>"<br>
>>>>>> <<a href="mailto:tor-teachers@lists.torproject.org" target="_blank">tor-teachers@lists.torproject.org</a>><br>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [tor-teachers] tor teachers -- politics<br>
>>>>>> Message-ID:<br>
>>>>>> <<br>
>>>> <a href="mailto:6CB05D82CE245B4083BBF3B97E2ED47008F91540@ait-pex01mbx01.win.dtu.dk" target="_blank">6CB05D82CE245B4083BBF3B97E2ED47008F91540@ait-pex01mbx01.win.dtu.dk</a>><br>
>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Hi,<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> I support the numerous points that Jacob has made, and<br>
>>>>>> reiterate the call for the original poster to expand on what<br>
>>>>>> she or he meant by excluding politics from the list such that<br>
>>>>>> we can better understand the motivations which may be well<br>
>>>>>> considered and thoughtful.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> I posit that most people who use tor eventually understand that<br>
>>>>>> there is a political aspect to their use of tor.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> One may start using tor because it provides technical capabilities<br>
>>>>>> which one requires (censorship circumvention, anonymity etc.).<br>
>>>>>> I suggest that these persons will likely either directly understand<br>
>>>>>> the political implications of their use of tor, or become aware of<br>
>> this<br>
>>>>>> soon enough.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> There are other persons, myself included, who use tor *specifically*<br>
>>>>>> as a political statement. I wish to support others in their right to<br>
>>>> read<br>
>>>>>> anonymously by joining the "anonymity set", and I wish to support<br>
>>>>>> those who *need* anonymity due to oppressive political environments.<br>
>>>>>> I suffer none of these oppressions, but by my actions express my<br>
>>>> solidarity<br>
>>>>>> with those who do. (And I believe that the watchers do not have a<br>
>> right<br>
>>>>>> to know what I read -- another political statement).<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> I believe that it is important to understand the political background<br>
>>>>>> so that, with this knowledge, one can tailor a presentation to the<br>
>>>>>> audience. Roger Dingledine made a great presentation (29C3 ?)<br>
>>>>>> in which he clearly describes the differing approach that he takes<br>
>>>>>> when talking about tor depending on the audience: students,<br>
>>>>>> activists, law enforcement, censors etc.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> I feel that if we don't understand the principles behind Tor,<br>
>>>>>>> we may have trouble teaching and evaluating related systems. The<br>
>>>>>>> principles behind Tor which are very political in most contexts<br>
>>>>>>> are why we're never going to see a backdoor inserted. Backdoor<br>
>>>>>>> free crypto is a very serious political stance in my view.<br>
>>>>>> I agree, it is a serious political stance, and am rather upset that it<br>
>>>> is<br>
>>>>>> at the present time.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> I'd still like to know what the original poster meant by<br>
>>>>>>> political in the context of this mailing list. It seems that<br>
>>>>>>> we should be open and willing to hear this definition and to<br>
>>>>>>> use it as a starting point. there may be a set of people who<br>
>>>>>>> consider themselves "non-political" when teaching Tor and I'd<br>
>>>>>>> like to ensure that we don't exclude them. First though, I'd<br>
>>>>>>> really like to hear what that means from someone who feels this<br>
>>>>>>> describes their views or desires for this list.<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> All the best,<br>
>>>>>>> Jacob<br>
>>>>>> Regards, Hugo<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> ------------------------------<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Message: 5<br>
>>>>>> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 15:58:21 +0000<br>
>>>>>> From: Alison Macrina <<a href="mailto:macrina@riseup.net" target="_blank">macrina@riseup.net</a>><br>
>>>>>> To: <a href="mailto:tor-teachers@lists.torproject.org" target="_blank">tor-teachers@lists.torproject.org</a><br>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [tor-teachers] tor-teachers - politics<br>
>>>>>> Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:5626649D.60702@riseup.net" target="_blank">5626649D.60702@riseup.net</a>><br>
>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> kbaegis:<br>
>>>>>>> Thanks for asking what I think Jacob,<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> My personal stance is that when we start including political<br>
>> discussion<br>
>>>>>>> we implicitly begin excluding people. Rational people, given the<br>
>> same<br>
>>>>>>> evidence, can reach the same conclusion. Opinions simply don't work<br>
>>>>>>> this way. You can't cite a reference, or make argument based on<br>
>> agreed<br>
>>>>>>> upon fact. Well informed opinions, while based upon fact, imply a<br>
>>>>>>> certain attachment to the idea.<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> Now let's play with an example:<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> "The founders wanted a democracy."<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> I think this is faulty decorum. Has the above statement advanced the<br>
>>>>>>> discussion in any meaningful way? If there's a disagreement, is<br>
>> there<br>
>>>>>>> any particular idea contained above that I can ask for a reference to<br>
>>>>>>> formally refute or am I stuck arguing about the difference between a<br>
>>>>>>> republic, democracy- and even more basically if a group of<br>
>> politicians<br>
>>>>>>> can agree on /anything./ It's easy to state opinions which require<br>
>> no<br>
>>>>>>> rigor or substance.<br>
>>>>>> I'm having a hard time understanding your argument, and I totally<br>
>>>>>> disagree with the last assertion. The conversation that's already<br>
>>>>>> happened on this thread shows that the political opinions shared are<br>
>>>>>> hardly without rigor or substance. Personally, my rigorous political<br>
>>>>>> praxis is the very thing that led me to Tor in the first place.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Who are you worried about excluding? The spies? The police? The ISPs?<br>
>>>>>> The advertisers? Eric Schmidt? Let them be excluded. Individuals who<br>
>>>>>> have political disagreements with other individuals on this list will<br>
>>>>>> not be rejected.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> I think that it's chiefly about exclusion. It seems sensible to me<br>
>>>> that<br>
>>>>>>> TOR benefits from any member- not simply those who subscribe to a<br>
>>>>>>> certain ideology. You absolutely need a dominant culture in the<br>
>>>>>>> development community. That's sensible. I would argue that this is<br>
>>>>>>> counterproductive on the teaching front.<br>
>>>>>> What certain ideology is being espoused here? The people I've met<br>
>> within<br>
>>>>>> the Tor community have pretty widely varying political beliefs. I<br>
>> think<br>
>>>>>> I can reasonably say that what we *do* agree on is that the work<br>
>> itself<br>
>>>>>> is political.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> My full-time work is teaching privacy-enhancing technologies, mostly<br>
>>>>>> across the US. When I teach, I make it clear what is politically at<br>
>>>>>> stake -- that is, the internet that we all depend on is increasingly<br>
>>>>>> controlled by a handful of intelligence agencies and giant<br>
>>>>>> multi-national corporations, and this threatens many of our basic<br>
>> human<br>
>>>>>> rights. And for marginalized people, this is more than just a nuisance<br>
>>>>>> -- it's a matter of life and death. This is fundamentally about power<br>
>>>>>> and control vs autonomy. I don't know how to make an argument for Tor<br>
>>>>>> that excludes that, nor would I want to; it feels equivalent to<br>
>> someone<br>
>>>>>> saying "let's do something about climate collapse, but not make it<br>
>>>>>> political".<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Echoing what Kenneth said, I am personally wary of any argument for<br>
>>>>>> political neutrality. There is no such thing as 'apolitical'. As<br>
>> Desmond<br>
>>>>>> Tutu famously said, "If you are neutral in situations of injustice,<br>
>> you<br>
>>>>>> have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on<br>
>>>>>> the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will<br>
>> not<br>
>>>>>> appreciate your neutrality."<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> What does everyone else think?<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> All of this aside, I was hoping that we could create some<br>
>> coordination<br>
>>>>>>> for classes. Again, I already fly around the country teaching. I'd<br>
>>>>>>> love to be able to teach TOR as well. I just need students.<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> Thanks,<br>
>>>>>>> Stephen<br>
>>>>>> I responded to this inline in your earlier message. Which country are<br>
>>>>>> you flying around in? What are you already teaching? Where are you<br>
>>>>>> teaching? What strategies have you already tried in reaching folks who<br>
>>>>>> are interested in Tor?<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Alison<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> ------------------------------<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Subject: Digest Footer<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________<br>
>>>>>> tor-teachers mailing list<br>
>>>>>> <a href="mailto:tor-teachers@lists.torproject.org" target="_blank">tor-teachers@lists.torproject.org</a><br>
>>>>>> <a href="https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-teachers" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-teachers</a><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> ------------------------------<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> End of tor-teachers Digest, Vol 2, Issue 14<br>
>>>>>> *******************************************<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> _______________________________________________<br>
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>>>>> <a href="mailto:tor-teachers@lists.torproject.org" target="_blank">tor-teachers@lists.torproject.org</a><br>
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>>>>><br>
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>>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> _______________________________________________<br>
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>>><br>
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