Fleshing out your analogy. What if said small New Hampshire town's police dept wanted to run a Tor relay and whistle blowing site, and then wanted to network with the Tor-teachers community to better teach their citizens how to safely use their new whistle-blowing site?<br><br>Do we help the NH police dept? Should they excluded from this space/list? Would they be allowed to attend the Tor meeting to share what they learned about teaching Tor to local New Hampshirians?<br><br>If you think this is outlandish, I don't think it's beyond the pale to get see like this done in Singapore.<br><br>-V<br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Wed, 21 Oct 2015 at 06:20 Alison Macrina <<a href="mailto:macrina@riseup.net">macrina@riseup.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Virgil Griffith:<br>
>> Who are you worried about excluding? The spies?<br>
>> The police? The ISPs? The advertisers? Eric Schmidt?<br>
>> Let them be excluded.<br>
><br>
> I claim that, when teaching Tor in East Asia we emphasized<br>
> pro-whistleblowing (which local govts and police support) over<br>
> pro-democracy, Tor becomes a technology The Man could get behind,<br>
> encourage, and even teach.<br>
><br>
> Putting aside questions of whether The Man is liked, given the vast numbers<br>
> of people living in these jurisdictions (not to the mention the chance to<br>
> drastically expand the anonymity set!), I vote, on purely pragmatic<br>
> grounds, to include the police, the ISPs, etc.<br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
Wellllllll, that's why I said "let them be excluded", because what I<br>
meant is that if our political language includes critiques of power and<br>
that gives them sad fee-fees, I really don't care. But I agree that it<br>
can be tactically useful to educate the police about Tor. Not just for<br>
expanding the anonymity set, but making it easier to get support for Tor<br>
in the wider community. Like when you want to run a Tor relay in a small<br>
New Hampshire town, and you don't want the police to get all upset about<br>
it. :)<br>
<br>
However, let me be clear -- that should be done PUBLICLY. Closed door<br>
meetings with any of these adversaries is extremely sketchy and is<br>
damaging to the trust of the Tor community.<br>
<br>
Also, let me be doubly clear: fuck the police.<br>
<br>
ACAB,<br>
<br>
Alison<br>
<br>
<br>
> -V<br>
> On Wed, 21 Oct 2015 at 02:03 Alison Macrina <<a href="mailto:macrina@riseup.net" target="_blank">macrina@riseup.net</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
>> Just a quick note that it's helpful if digest readers change the subject<br>
>> line so that we know what they're responding to.<br>
>><br>
>> kbaegis:<br>
>>> Okay Alison. Fine. I really wasn't looking to pick a fight, so I'm not<br>
>>> going to address weird arguments about excluding Eric Schmidt from TOR.<br>
>>> When hyperbole and extreme arguments rule, you have a tyranny of whoever<br>
>>> can produce the most extreme rhetoric. It's sophistry at its finest.<br>
>>><br>
>>> I'll message you directly.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Thanks,<br>
>>> Stephen<br>
>><br>
>> I'm not trying to pick a fight, nor was I being hyperbolic. I named<br>
>> those adversaries because they are the ones we make space for when we<br>
>> say that the conversation should not be political. My argument was not<br>
>> fallacious. I think we simply disagree.<br>
>><br>
>> I don't want this conversation to become hostile, so perhaps we should<br>
>> conclude it. I think it's fair to say that folks on this list do not<br>
>> want to exclude politics from the discussion.<br>
>><br>
>> Alison<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>>> On 10/20/15 10:58 AM, <a href="mailto:tor-teachers-request@lists.torproject.org" target="_blank">tor-teachers-request@lists.torproject.org</a> wrote:<br>
>>>> Send tor-teachers mailing list submissions to<br>
>>>> <a href="mailto:tor-teachers@lists.torproject.org" target="_blank">tor-teachers@lists.torproject.org</a><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br>
>>>> <a href="https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-teachers" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-teachers</a><br>
>>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br>
>>>> <a href="mailto:tor-teachers-request@lists.torproject.org" target="_blank">tor-teachers-request@lists.torproject.org</a><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> You can reach the person managing the list at<br>
>>>> <a href="mailto:tor-teachers-owner@lists.torproject.org" target="_blank">tor-teachers-owner@lists.torproject.org</a><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>
>>>> than "Re: Contents of tor-teachers digest..."<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Today's Topics:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> 1. Re: tor teachers -- politics (Alison Macrina)<br>
>>>> 2. Re: Extra Presentations to add to Wiki (sajolida)<br>
>>>> 3. Re: tor-teachers Digest, Vol 2, Issue 13 (kbaegis)<br>
>>>> 4. Re: tor teachers -- politics (Hugo Maxwell Connery)<br>
>>>> 5. Re: tor-teachers - politics (Alison Macrina)<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Message: 1<br>
>>>> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 14:31:15 +0000<br>
>>>> From: Alison Macrina <<a href="mailto:macrina@riseup.net" target="_blank">macrina@riseup.net</a>><br>
>>>> To: <a href="mailto:tor-teachers@lists.torproject.org" target="_blank">tor-teachers@lists.torproject.org</a><br>
>>>> Subject: Re: [tor-teachers] tor teachers -- politics<br>
>>>> Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:56265033.6040800@riseup.net" target="_blank">56265033.6040800@riseup.net</a>><br>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Nathan of Guardian:<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> On Tue, Oct 20, 2015, at 06:55 AM, Jacob Appelbaum wrote:<br>
>>>>>> Dear Nathan and everyone,<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> I think as a community of teachers and trainers, we'll have to all be<br>
>>>>>>> open to the fact that we are coming from very different backgrounds,<br>
>> and<br>
>>>>>>> working with very different communities. I don't think anyone is<br>
>>>>>>> actively trying to inject their own personal "P" politics into the<br>
>> list,<br>
>>>>>>> but I am sure many kinds of politics will come up, as an aspect of<br>
>>>>>>> empowering users who are working against a system that seeks to<br>
>>>>>>> disempower them.<br>
>>>>>> I'm totally on board with everything you've said excluding the very<br>
>>>>>> last bit here. Forgive me for going down the rabbit hole with you.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> We're not working against any system directly. Our efforts are not<br>
>>>>>> mere pushback. Sure, we hope to stop surveillance and censorship<br>
>>>>>> systems from harming Tor users. The crux here isn't just about<br>
>>>>>> protesting "the man" or a specific political party or something along<br>
>>>>>> those lines. Rather we've built an alternative and we're teaching<br>
>>>>>> people how to utilize it in their lives.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> The result is of course political and there is a question of how the<br>
>>>>>> new system embodies certain political ideals. In our new system we<br>
>>>>>> build on the radical politics of IP networking, we have a right to<br>
>>>>>> form and hold ideas without interference, we have a right to free<br>
>>>>>> speech and a right to read, we have anonymity of various kinds. We<br>
>>>>>> have this as an intentional outcome of strong cryptography where<br>
>>>>>> everyone is able to run or to use this new infrastructure. That isn't<br>
>>>>>> a matter of just being against a system, it is about iterating and<br>
>>>>>> changing the current systems, while also providing alternatives that<br>
>>>>>> coexist and which are capable of replacing older, less autonomy<br>
>>>>>> respecting, systems which are oppressive.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>> Here, here!<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>> Thanks for this, Nathan and Jake.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Alison<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> ------------------------------<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Message: 2<br>
>>>> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 11:54:18 +0000<br>
>>>> From: sajolida <<a href="mailto:sajolida@pimienta.org" target="_blank">sajolida@pimienta.org</a>><br>
>>>> To: "List to be used by Tor teachers and trainers to build a<br>
>>>> community, circulate training materials and get feedback"<br>
>>>> <<a href="mailto:tor-teachers@lists.torproject.org" target="_blank">tor-teachers@lists.torproject.org</a>><br>
>>>> Subject: Re: [tor-teachers] Extra Presentations to add to Wiki<br>
>>>> Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:56262B6A.5040204@pimienta.org" target="_blank">56262B6A.5040204@pimienta.org</a>><br>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Dylan Cooper:<br>
>>>>> Figured I'd move this to a new thread to see if anyone is willing to<br>
>> divide<br>
>>>>> some of the leftover presentations Alison referenced earlier[1] that<br>
>> have<br>
>>>>> been accumulated over time.<br>
>>>> Hi,<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> First of all, let my introduce myself as I've been lurking on this list<br>
>>>> for a while but this is my first post. I'm working on Tails where I do<br>
>>>> most of the technical writing and a bit of UX too.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> I'm not exactly sure why you're mentioning this list of presentations<br>
>>>> from Tor but I thought I'd point you to the repository we have for our<br>
>>>> presentations about Tails if that can be useful:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> - Online artifacts (source and HTML):<br>
>>>> <a href="https://tails.boum.org/contribute/how/promote/material/slides/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://tails.boum.org/contribute/how/promote/material/slides/</a><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> - Git repository:<br>
>>>> <a href="https://git-tails.immerda.ch/promotion-material/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://git-tails.immerda.ch/promotion-material/</a><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> ------------------------------<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Message: 3<br>
>>>> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 10:10:27 -0500<br>
>>>> From: kbaegis <<a href="mailto:kbaegis@gmail.com" target="_blank">kbaegis@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>>> To: <a href="mailto:tor-teachers@lists.torproject.org" target="_blank">tor-teachers@lists.torproject.org</a><br>
>>>> Subject: Re: [tor-teachers] tor-teachers Digest, Vol 2, Issue 13<br>
>>>> Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:56265963.7090109@gmail.com" target="_blank">56265963.7090109@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Thanks for asking what I think Jacob,<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> My personal stance is that when we start including political discussion<br>
>>>> we implicitly begin excluding people. Rational people, given the same<br>
>>>> evidence, can reach the same conclusion. Opinions simply don't work<br>
>>>> this way. You can't cite a reference, or make argument based on agreed<br>
>>>> upon fact. Well informed opinions, while based upon fact, imply a<br>
>>>> certain attachment to the idea.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Now let's play with an example:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> "The founders wanted a democracy."<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> I think this is faulty decorum. Has the above statement advanced the<br>
>>>> discussion in any meaningful way? If there's a disagreement, is there<br>
>>>> any particular idea contained above that I can ask for a reference to<br>
>>>> formally refute or am I stuck arguing about the difference between a<br>
>>>> republic, democracy- and even more basically if a group of politicians<br>
>>>> can agree on /anything./ It's easy to state opinions which require no<br>
>>>> rigor or substance.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> I think that it's chiefly about exclusion. It seems sensible to me that<br>
>>>> TOR benefits from any member- not simply those who subscribe to a<br>
>>>> certain ideology. You absolutely need a dominant culture in the<br>
>>>> development community. That's sensible. I would argue that this is<br>
>>>> counterproductive on the teaching front.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> What does everyone else think?<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> All of this aside, I was hoping that we could create some coordination<br>
>>>> for classes. Again, I already fly around the country teaching. I'd<br>
>>>> love to be able to teach TOR as well. I just need students.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Thanks,<br>
>>>> Stephen<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> On 10/20/15 7:00 AM, <a href="mailto:tor-teachers-request@lists.torproject.org" target="_blank">tor-teachers-request@lists.torproject.org</a> wrote:<br>
>>>>> I feel that if we don't understand the principles behind Tor, we may<br>
>>>>> have trouble teaching and evaluating related systems. The principles<br>
>>>>> behind Tor which are very political in most contexts are why we're<br>
>>>>> never going to see a backdoor inserted. Backdoor free crypto is a very<br>
>>>>> serious political stance in my view.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> I'd still like to know what the original poster meant by political in<br>
>>>>> the context of this mailing list. It seems that we should be open and<br>
>>>>> willing to hear this definition and to use it as a starting point.<br>
>>>>> there may be a set of people who consider themselves "non-political"<br>
>>>>> when teaching Tor and I'd like to ensure that we don't exclude them.<br>
>>>>> First though, I'd really like to hear what that means from someone who<br>
>>>>> feels this describes their views or desires for this list.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> All the best,<br>
>>>>> Jacob<br>
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>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> ------------------------------<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Message: 4<br>
>>>> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 15:17:35 +0000<br>
>>>> From: Hugo Maxwell Connery <<a href="mailto:hmco@env.dtu.dk" target="_blank">hmco@env.dtu.dk</a>><br>
>>>> To: "<a href="mailto:tor-teachers@lists.torproject.org" target="_blank">tor-teachers@lists.torproject.org</a>"<br>
>>>> <<a href="mailto:tor-teachers@lists.torproject.org" target="_blank">tor-teachers@lists.torproject.org</a>><br>
>>>> Subject: Re: [tor-teachers] tor teachers -- politics<br>
>>>> Message-ID:<br>
>>>> <<br>
>> <a href="mailto:6CB05D82CE245B4083BBF3B97E2ED47008F91540@ait-pex01mbx01.win.dtu.dk" target="_blank">6CB05D82CE245B4083BBF3B97E2ED47008F91540@ait-pex01mbx01.win.dtu.dk</a>><br>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Hi,<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> I support the numerous points that Jacob has made, and<br>
>>>> reiterate the call for the original poster to expand on what<br>
>>>> she or he meant by excluding politics from the list such that<br>
>>>> we can better understand the motivations which may be well<br>
>>>> considered and thoughtful.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> I posit that most people who use tor eventually understand that<br>
>>>> there is a political aspect to their use of tor.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> One may start using tor because it provides technical capabilities<br>
>>>> which one requires (censorship circumvention, anonymity etc.).<br>
>>>> I suggest that these persons will likely either directly understand<br>
>>>> the political implications of their use of tor, or become aware of this<br>
>>>> soon enough.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> There are other persons, myself included, who use tor *specifically*<br>
>>>> as a political statement. I wish to support others in their right to<br>
>> read<br>
>>>> anonymously by joining the "anonymity set", and I wish to support<br>
>>>> those who *need* anonymity due to oppressive political environments.<br>
>>>> I suffer none of these oppressions, but by my actions express my<br>
>> solidarity<br>
>>>> with those who do. (And I believe that the watchers do not have a right<br>
>>>> to know what I read -- another political statement).<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> I believe that it is important to understand the political background<br>
>>>> so that, with this knowledge, one can tailor a presentation to the<br>
>>>> audience. Roger Dingledine made a great presentation (29C3 ?)<br>
>>>> in which he clearly describes the differing approach that he takes<br>
>>>> when talking about tor depending on the audience: students,<br>
>>>> activists, law enforcement, censors etc.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>>> I feel that if we don't understand the principles behind Tor,<br>
>>>>> we may have trouble teaching and evaluating related systems. The<br>
>>>>> principles behind Tor which are very political in most contexts<br>
>>>>> are why we're never going to see a backdoor inserted. Backdoor<br>
>>>>> free crypto is a very serious political stance in my view.<br>
>>>> I agree, it is a serious political stance, and am rather upset that it<br>
>> is<br>
>>>> at the present time.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>>> I'd still like to know what the original poster meant by<br>
>>>>> political in the context of this mailing list. It seems that<br>
>>>>> we should be open and willing to hear this definition and to<br>
>>>>> use it as a starting point. there may be a set of people who<br>
>>>>> consider themselves "non-political" when teaching Tor and I'd<br>
>>>>> like to ensure that we don't exclude them. First though, I'd<br>
>>>>> really like to hear what that means from someone who feels this<br>
>>>>> describes their views or desires for this list.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> All the best,<br>
>>>>> Jacob<br>
>>>> Regards, Hugo<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> ------------------------------<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Message: 5<br>
>>>> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 15:58:21 +0000<br>
>>>> From: Alison Macrina <<a href="mailto:macrina@riseup.net" target="_blank">macrina@riseup.net</a>><br>
>>>> To: <a href="mailto:tor-teachers@lists.torproject.org" target="_blank">tor-teachers@lists.torproject.org</a><br>
>>>> Subject: Re: [tor-teachers] tor-teachers - politics<br>
>>>> Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:5626649D.60702@riseup.net" target="_blank">5626649D.60702@riseup.net</a>><br>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> kbaegis:<br>
>>>>> Thanks for asking what I think Jacob,<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> My personal stance is that when we start including political discussion<br>
>>>>> we implicitly begin excluding people. Rational people, given the same<br>
>>>>> evidence, can reach the same conclusion. Opinions simply don't work<br>
>>>>> this way. You can't cite a reference, or make argument based on agreed<br>
>>>>> upon fact. Well informed opinions, while based upon fact, imply a<br>
>>>>> certain attachment to the idea.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Now let's play with an example:<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> "The founders wanted a democracy."<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> I think this is faulty decorum. Has the above statement advanced the<br>
>>>>> discussion in any meaningful way? If there's a disagreement, is there<br>
>>>>> any particular idea contained above that I can ask for a reference to<br>
>>>>> formally refute or am I stuck arguing about the difference between a<br>
>>>>> republic, democracy- and even more basically if a group of politicians<br>
>>>>> can agree on /anything./ It's easy to state opinions which require no<br>
>>>>> rigor or substance.<br>
>>>> I'm having a hard time understanding your argument, and I totally<br>
>>>> disagree with the last assertion. The conversation that's already<br>
>>>> happened on this thread shows that the political opinions shared are<br>
>>>> hardly without rigor or substance. Personally, my rigorous political<br>
>>>> praxis is the very thing that led me to Tor in the first place.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Who are you worried about excluding? The spies? The police? The ISPs?<br>
>>>> The advertisers? Eric Schmidt? Let them be excluded. Individuals who<br>
>>>> have political disagreements with other individuals on this list will<br>
>>>> not be rejected.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>>> I think that it's chiefly about exclusion. It seems sensible to me<br>
>> that<br>
>>>>> TOR benefits from any member- not simply those who subscribe to a<br>
>>>>> certain ideology. You absolutely need a dominant culture in the<br>
>>>>> development community. That's sensible. I would argue that this is<br>
>>>>> counterproductive on the teaching front.<br>
>>>> What certain ideology is being espoused here? The people I've met within<br>
>>>> the Tor community have pretty widely varying political beliefs. I think<br>
>>>> I can reasonably say that what we *do* agree on is that the work itself<br>
>>>> is political.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> My full-time work is teaching privacy-enhancing technologies, mostly<br>
>>>> across the US. When I teach, I make it clear what is politically at<br>
>>>> stake -- that is, the internet that we all depend on is increasingly<br>
>>>> controlled by a handful of intelligence agencies and giant<br>
>>>> multi-national corporations, and this threatens many of our basic human<br>
>>>> rights. And for marginalized people, this is more than just a nuisance<br>
>>>> -- it's a matter of life and death. This is fundamentally about power<br>
>>>> and control vs autonomy. I don't know how to make an argument for Tor<br>
>>>> that excludes that, nor would I want to; it feels equivalent to someone<br>
>>>> saying "let's do something about climate collapse, but not make it<br>
>>>> political".<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Echoing what Kenneth said, I am personally wary of any argument for<br>
>>>> political neutrality. There is no such thing as 'apolitical'. As Desmond<br>
>>>> Tutu famously said, "If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you<br>
>>>> have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on<br>
>>>> the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not<br>
>>>> appreciate your neutrality."<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>>> What does everyone else think?<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> All of this aside, I was hoping that we could create some coordination<br>
>>>>> for classes. Again, I already fly around the country teaching. I'd<br>
>>>>> love to be able to teach TOR as well. I just need students.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Thanks,<br>
>>>>> Stephen<br>
>>>> I responded to this inline in your earlier message. Which country are<br>
>>>> you flying around in? What are you already teaching? Where are you<br>
>>>> teaching? What strategies have you already tried in reaching folks who<br>
>>>> are interested in Tor?<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Alison<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> ------------------------------<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Subject: Digest Footer<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> _______________________________________________<br>
>>>> tor-teachers mailing list<br>
>>>> <a href="mailto:tor-teachers@lists.torproject.org" target="_blank">tor-teachers@lists.torproject.org</a><br>
>>>> <a href="https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-teachers" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-teachers</a><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> ------------------------------<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> End of tor-teachers Digest, Vol 2, Issue 14<br>
>>>> *******************************************<br>
>>><br>
>>> _______________________________________________<br>
>>> tor-teachers mailing list<br>
>>> <a href="mailto:tor-teachers@lists.torproject.org" target="_blank">tor-teachers@lists.torproject.org</a><br>
>>> <a href="https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-teachers" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-teachers</a><br>
>>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> tor-teachers mailing list<br>
>> <a href="mailto:tor-teachers@lists.torproject.org" target="_blank">tor-teachers@lists.torproject.org</a><br>
>> <a href="https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-teachers" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-teachers</a><br>
>><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
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> <a href="mailto:tor-teachers@lists.torproject.org" target="_blank">tor-teachers@lists.torproject.org</a><br>
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