M wrote...

"<RANT>
Say with me: "Molesting kids is sick. If you need kids to get you off
you are sick and need treatment." Just use your common sense to judge
what is cp, it's not so hard. Theres nothing wrong with censoring cp
even if it means censoring material that already exists what difference
does it make? If you had children what would you think if you found CP
from internet involving your child? I dont think that you would be like
"Oh, it's OK, those pictures already exist" (except if you are a
pedophile).

Children should have normal and safe childrenhood, I dont think that
anything involving child abuse (meaning CP) should be available.

I just hate people like NAMBLA who are trying to justify their sick
urges. "Dude, you're having sex with children!" <- There is no defense
for that.
</RANT>

> As many have already mentioned censorship is a slippery slope and there is no way you can reach a definition of what is acceptable to all. Censorship of already published information is never justified imo.
>  
> Not to mention I assume the whole idea of a project like TOR is to defeat censorship.

Defeating censorship is good, CP is bad. It's sad but CP and child abuse
just doesn't go away but that doesn't mean that we should accept it and
stop fighting back.

<RANT>
Uhhuhh... I just hope that Tor doesn't become like Freenet (or has it
already become). I dislike Freenet because it's so full of CP, some
groups openly support CP in Freenet (and it's written in Java).
</RANT>

M"

M I have to agree.

To Censor or NOT to Censor that is the question...

In the mid-90's when the internet was first jolted by the question of child porn and its censorship the authorities (network providers etc) ALL told them it could NOT be done! As I said before this was a lie.

I have seen all of the arguments posted here on er-talk before some 10-15 years ago.

At that time I came out in favour of NO CENSORSHIP (I reasoned about classic painting cherubs and generated pron and the likes), as a matter of PRINCIPLE, and I suppose the naive hope that government would not persue this matter any further.

But what I have seen is the bogey-man cp being used as a "stalking horse" for all kinds of snooping. And network admin, frozen powerless to admit their original strategy was wrong.


<Slightly off topic but relevant>
<SCREAM>
*** Hey GUYS the "GLOBAL adversary" is today a REALITY, because of cp.

So stop talking about Tor NOT being designed to protect from it, it SHOULD!
 
Its like saying "we've got this pair of gloves for protecting you from hot objects" and having a disclaimer clause in the small print which says "This product was never designed to protect the wearer from objects above room temperature"!

If your ENTRY and EXIT nodes are both in N. America (+some S.America)/ W.Europe/some E. Europe/ India/ Pakistan+Other M.East/ Japan/ Thialand/ S.Korea/ Australia/ N.Zealand/countries like the Phillipines then the GLOBAL ADVERSARY can ALREADY track your activities!  
</SCREAM>

The more I hear the Tor design response to questions of adding increased anonymity, the more I, reluctantly, am coming to the conclusion that Tor has been developed for use by the US military. Who, with a few small changes can probably mod. the code to make it military strength and then use "joe public" (private Tor users and private server nodes) as unwitting "bodies" to hide amongst.

</Slightly off topic but relevant>


I'd like to see Tor admin approach the feds & interpol cp teams and agree that they (feds/interpol) create a cp list (they almost certainly have one already) to be used as a block list by Tor. Tor EXITS dont get to do any work other than set their settings (same for Tor clients), its all downloaded automatically. The police then make the list so they are responsible, not TO r EXIT nodes. Tor clients then attempts to negotiate circuits for the clients settings. This would still allow EXIt nodes to have the cp, if they want.

If you dont then all that will happen is MORE tools will be developed by the adversay (from our tax money) and more cmprehensive logging will occur (from our service payments to ISP's) and more countries will be forced to co-operate in the "Global Battle" to "protect children".

Now just imagine - take out the cp "stalking horse" from the equation and what is "Big Brother" they left with? 

Terrorism, state security, ordinary criminal activity, difficult to call images and text and VERY difficult to find any support for "political" censorship.

NONE of these get the same JOLT or MOMENTUM as cp and the creeps that want to trace your every move will find it MUCH harder to make a case for MORE spending.

Hey GUYS there are ONLY 2 groups REALLY afraid of cp censorship...

1. Pedophile - who can see Tor being more restrictive but not necessarily TOO much of a problem (though they may fear its as thin end of the wedge).

2. "Big Brother" - who wont be able to get more money/laws for even more tools/methods to track you with.


By making it clear to the feds if there is ANY attempt to ADD other forms of censorship or to pass LAWS the Tor network co-operation ends there and then!


Still not convinced ?... then chew on this....

..A simple law in the EEC/USA/CANADA requiring ALL network servers, including anonymous networks, private or public, to retain/publish logs of "network" packets/requests would immediately destroy EVERYTHING about Tor.

Are you gonna force them to do this to you? For they surely will, if you let them by not giving a little!

<wisdom>
"Grasshopper, a mighty oak tree dies when it uprooted by the wind, but the lowly grass bends to such forces and survives to use the wind to sow its seeds. There are times to be a mighty oak and times to be a lowly grass. As a mighty oak, when you are responsible for producing the wind of change, make sure that you are as grass to that wind, else you destroy all you have created."      
</wisdom>

-- 
Message sent with Supanet E-mail

Signup to supanet at https://signup.supanet.com/cgi-bin/signup?_origin=sigwebmail