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<p>On 3/15/19 2:43 PM, Volker Mink wrote:<br>
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<div>German gouvernment signs new darknet laws.</div>
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<p>Completely wrong. The Bundesrat does not sign any laws and it
is not the German government. It forwards them to the Bundestag
which will discuss and <u>perhaps</u> sign it.</p>
<p>So, not all is lost at this point. Additionally it seems to me
that the intention, which potentially criminalizes running a tor
relay in general, was removed by the committees. <br>
</p>
<p>Nevertheless this peace of paper is completely useless and
potentially dangerous even if its all about the so called
darknet-stores. <br>
</p>
<p>All the best</p>
<p>flux<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>PS: This is the wrong list as it is supposed to be used for
administrative discussions. Please use the tor-talk list
instead. <br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:trinity-306fbcce-ab0a-4a39-82e5-4b7235a72ecb-1552657424860@3c-app-gmx-bs55">
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<div style="margin:0 0 10px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Montag,
11. März 2019 um 21:52 Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Herbert Karl Mathé" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:mail@hkmathe.de" moz-do-not-send="true"><mail@hkmathe.de></a><br>
<b>An:</b> tor-talk <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:tor-talk@lists.torproject.org"
moz-do-not-send="true"><tor-talk@lists.torproject.org></a>,
tor-relays <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:tor-relays@lists.torproject.org"
moz-do-not-send="true"><tor-relays@lists.torproject.org></a>,
"Seth David Schoen" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:schoen@eff.org" moz-do-not-send="true"><schoen@eff.org></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> [tor-relays] Fw: german plans on
banning TOR</div>
<div name="quoted-content">Please see below, as well as
(German) legislation: <a
href="https://www.bundesrat.de/SharedDocs/drucksachen/2019/0001-0100/33-19.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=1"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.bundesrat.de/SharedDocs/drucksachen/2019/0001-0100/33-19.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=1</a>.<br>
<br>
Bigger picture likely to be behind as pointed out some
days ago.<br>
<br>
Shit like this adding to tightening police forces'
legislations in various Federal States in not-so Good
Old Germany.<br>
<br>
--<br>
Herbert Karl Mathé<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:mail@hkmathe.de" moz-do-not-send="true">mail@hkmathe.de</a><br>
PGP B9BF953500452875 <a
href="https://www.hkmathe.de/pub_key_16-07-09.txt"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.hkmathe.de/pub_key_16-07-09.txt</a><br>
@hkmathe<br>
Beethovenstr. 13 60325 Frankfurt Germany<br>
<br>
<br>
Begin forwarded message:<br>
<br>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2019 22:39:47 +0100<br>
From: Herbert Karl Mathé <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:mail@hkmathe.de" moz-do-not-send="true"><mail@hkmathe.de></a><br>
To: niftybunny <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:abuse@to-surf-and-protect.net"
moz-do-not-send="true"><abuse@to-surf-and-protect.net></a><br>
Cc: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:tor-relays@lists.torproject.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">tor-relays@lists.torproject.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [tor-relays] german plans on banning TOR<br>
<br>
<br>
Let's be pragmatic:<br>
<br>
There's "anti-darkweb" propaganda been quite a while
going on, mainly by Federal Criminal Police Office,
backed up by Christian (so-called) Democrats, and the
Nazi party, sure, pointing out like lots of children's
lives could be saved, or saved from being abused,
resp., when vanquishing "The Darkweb". Trucks
(lorries), knifes, or similar potentially lethal
objects are not on their agenda. Police spokespersons
around the clock complaining being substantially
disadvantaged - should say: retarded???<br>
<br>
Unsurprisingly, police forces in any legislation are
not neutral, these do not at all mirror society and
its inherent diversity. Plus, police forces very
indirectly are serving the public, with any
misdemeanor or assaults to be prosecuted not before
afterwards by taking complex, costly and risky legal
actions, never immediately, or right in place. That
makes a huge difference.<br>
<br>
What this legislation is very likely ending up is
various courts ruling through verdicts on eventually
shutting down specific sites. These verdicts might
easily appear as being random, which is due to immense
lack of in-depth knowledge in related matters (see
file sharing dissuasions by dedicated law firms being
backed by courts having difficulties understanding IP
addresses), also due to each and every court ruling
independent which makes it like gambling, these courts
at the same time being highly susceptible to what is
believed by them to be public opinion.<br>
<br>
The latter is what's being made up right with this
legislative initiative, leveraging Tor Project for
staging some threat model. Cynically enough, threat
(by The Onion) again is from foreign, just like for
some time refugees had been said to be (evil
propaganda which obviously, and thank god, did not
fully work out).<br>
<br>
In phase of weakness, it's always the outlandish being
plead guilty, being abused to deviate from domestic,
and home-made, self-made failure.<br>
<br>
No facts yet, just some reflected opinions - as soon
as such legislation is out it'll be much harder to
defend liberty. It's not about paragraphs, or bits and
bytes, it's about freedom and democracy.<br>
<br>
Free press, and journalists as individuals will as
consequence be under heavy suspicion for cooperating
with elements of Dark Web.<br>
<br>
If Germany falls...<br>
<br>
--<br>
Herbert Karl Mathé<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:mail@hkmathe.de" moz-do-not-send="true">mail@hkmathe.de</a><br>
PGP B9BF953500452875 <a
href="https://www.hkmathe.de/pub_key_16-07-09.txt"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.hkmathe.de/pub_key_16-07-09.txt</a><br>
@hkmathe<br>
Beethovenstr. 13 60325 Frankfurt Germany<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 21:19:23 +0100<br>
niftybunny <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:abuse@to-surf-and-protect.net"
moz-do-not-send="true"><abuse@to-surf-and-protect.net></a>
wrote:<br>
<br>
> > "Zum anderen ist die Zugänglichmachung jedes<br>
> > internetbasierten Angebots, das auf die
Begehung jeglicher<br>
> > Straftaten gerichtet ist, gleichermaßen
strafwürdig."<br>
><br>
><br>
> Thats every ISP on the world. Every ISP on the
world lets you connect to the internet. What they want
to do is outlaw the running of markets who promote
drugs, weapons and cheese pizza.<br>
> Thats already the case. The just want it in one
law so they don't have to process several accusations.<br>
><br>
> I read it weeks ago and Tor will not be outlawed
in this case.<br>
><br>
> > "Betreiber, deren Angebote ohne
entsprechende Zielrichtung zur Förderung von
Straftaten genutzt<br>
> > werden, vom Tatbestand ausgenommen. “<br>
><br>
> Ebay will not get fucked, only if you have a
market which prime directive is to sell drugs, weapons
and CP.<br>
><br>
> > Referenced to § 129 StGB in the text:
reference is made to membership in a criminal
organization. The Tor project will then be declared as
such.<br>
><br>
> Dear god …<br>
><br>
><br>
> > On 6. Mar 2019, at 20:35, Olaf Grimm <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:jeep665@posteo.de"
moz-do-not-send="true"><jeep665@posteo.de></a>
wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > Some contradictions in the recommendations
of the committee:<br>
> ><br>
> > Take a look on page 6 and 7 (in german,
translation of the sentences below).<br>
> ><br>
> > "Zum anderen ist die Zugänglichmachung jedes<br>
> > internetbasierten Angebots, das auf die
Begehung jeglicher<br>
> > Straftaten gerichtet ist, gleichermaßen
strafwürdig."<br>
> ><br>
> > "Second, the availability of each<br>
> > Internet-based offer, based on the
commission of any<br>
> > Criminal offenses is equally punishable."<br>
> ><br>
> > "Betreiber, deren Angebote ohne
entsprechende Zielrichtung zur Förderung von
Straftaten genutzt<br>
> > werden, vom Tatbestand ausgenommen. "<br>
> ><br>
> > "Operators whose offers are used without
appropriate target direction for the promotion of
criminal offenses<br>
> > be excluded from the facts."<br>
> ><br>
> > <a
href="https://www.bundesrat.de/SharedDocs/drucksachen/2019/0001-0100/33-1-19.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=1"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.bundesrat.de/SharedDocs/drucksachen/2019/0001-0100/33-1-19.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=1</a>
<<a
href="https://www.bundesrat.de/SharedDocs/drucksachen/2019/0001-0100/33-1-19.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=1"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.bundesrat.de/SharedDocs/drucksachen/2019/0001-0100/33-1-19.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=1</a>><br>
> ><br>
> > I think that's the first step to forbid Tor.
The text indicates operators. Is my relay abroad
illegal because I'm German?<br>
> > Referenced to § 129 StGB in the text:
reference is made to membership in a criminal
organization. The Tor project will then be declared as
such.<br>
> ><br>
> > Olaf<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Am 06.03.19 um 15:47 schrieb Volker Mink:<br>
[...]<br>
> ><br>
> >
_______________________________________________<br>
> > tor-relays mailing list<br>
> > <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:tor-relays@lists.torproject.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">tor-relays@lists.torproject.org</a><br>
> > <a
href="https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays</a><br>
><br>
<br>
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href="mailto:tor-relays@lists.torproject.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">tor-relays@lists.torproject.org</a><br>
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href="https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays</a></div>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
tor-relays mailing list
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<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays</a>
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