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<p>Hi Volker,<br>
</p>
<p>A French text of law also exists for the following protection
(following lines) but there is some others laws that are making it
not completely clear, unfortunately.<br>
</p>
<p>You're not responsible about information that have been
transmitted trough your Internet access if :<br>
-You're not originating the transmission<br>
-You're not selecting the recipient of the transmission<br>
-You're not selecting and not modifying the transmitted
information<br>
<br>
It's a little bit known because of intellectual property law
infringement ("HADOPI" here).<br>
Some years ago, when downloading movies and music with Peer to
peer, if there were questions and complaint people simply could
say "it's not me, somebody is likely using my IP trough WiFi".<br>
<br>
So they written a law saying that you become responsible of "the
faulty protection of your access", responsible of having neglected
it, with a possible sanction about it. That means that today,
you're supposed to have logs and identifications about "who is
doing what" if you operate a public Internet access, and one time
it's a reproach that I had orally about Tor. I didn't done a lot
of research on this subject in order to know if Tor's case is fine
about this law or not, since it was not a written and formal
comment.<br>
<br>
Here's for the technical points.<br>
<br>
With hindsight :<br>
<br>
Of course the law have been made in order to apply on movies and
music download, and as a lot of laws, it can also be useful for
information services in case of misdeed; and lot of people are
agreeing with it, after all.<br>
Finally it also have a repercussion about things like Tor; and I
believe that not a lot of people here know about Tor.<br>
<br>
People aren't always realizing that this kind of laws (supposed to
be done "for people and on behalf of people"), are written out of
any control from people, and are almost irreversible. And people
never know how much things those law can touch. Few month ago with
the "Emergency state" law about Islamic terrorism, ecology
activists and volunteers had "assigned residence orders" during
COP21, because this law is talking about security and trouble
avoidance. Then, one can always say that it's good, but obviously
I think nobody realize what we are loosing because of this kind of
security laws. Even if climbing and eating flowers with big signs
remains, most of the time, ineffective (as change.org and avaaz is
most of the time), since elected persons who write the laws don't
even care about it (and that's the biggest problem we have today).
In our case, elected people are doing the law. For better laws,
the only solution is better elected people, and that's a big
problem too ;) <br>
</p>
<p>But then it's not related anymore to what we are discussing here
(or just as it's about laws and fairness).<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 01/11/2016 10:22, Volker Mink wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:trinity-726e250b-154b-4b7f-b710-bc66f85a7ab7-1477992159027@3capp-gmx-bs08"
type="cite">
<div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div>
<div>When reading this i am glad i live in germany.<br>
We still have some laws which protect operators of TOR-Exits
:)</div>
<div><br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/tmg/__5.html">https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/tmg/__5.html</a></div>
<div><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/tmg/__8.html">https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/tmg/__8.html</a></div>
<div><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/tmg/__15.html">https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/tmg/__15.html</a></div>
<div>(perhaps try to translate them with google)<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div name="quote" style="margin:10px 5px 5px 10px; padding:
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<div style="margin:0 0 10px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Dienstag,
01. November 2016 um 01:03 Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> I <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:beatthebastards@inbox.com"><beatthebastards@inbox.com></a><br>
<b>An:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:tor-relays@lists.torproject.org">tor-relays@lists.torproject.org</a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [tor-relays] Interrogated by Finnish
police for alleged idendity crimes, fraud and attempts
of fraud</div>
<div name="quoted-content">An excellent approach<br>
<br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:julien.robin28@free.fr">julien.robin28@free.fr</a><br>
> Sent: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 23:16:53 +0100<br>
> To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:tor-relays@lists.torproject.org">tor-relays@lists.torproject.org</a><br>
> Subject: Re: [tor-relays] Interrogated by Finnish
police for alleged<br>
> idendity crimes, fraud and attempts of fraud<br>
><br>
> Hi,<br>
><br>
> With the 3 big exit nodes I had in France (about
30MB/s in both<br>
> direction for each of them), I got called by police
a lot of time (may<br>
> be 10 times approximately ? I do not really count
anymore) on<br>
> investigations about misdeed that was committed
from IP addresses of my<br>
> Tor relays (95.130.9.190 and 95.130.9.89 mainly, at
Digicube, not<br>
> running anymore since June, 2015). No call about
the Online.net one<br>
> (62.210.206.25, now Relay only since January,
2015), which was as big as<br>
> the 2 others and Exit too, but the ISP is well
known as servers and<br>
> website big provider in France so I guess they
realize it's an exit node<br>
> before calling me. The "facts" were also, most of
the time, fraud and<br>
> attempts of fraud but also slander one time.<br>
><br>
> I was most of the time called as suspect because IP
are related to my<br>
> name (because I was leasing those servers), as for
a home connection in<br>
> their point of view (not aware that those IP are
dedicated servers IP).<br>
> Then I simply explain this in appropriate terms.
After some times,<br>
> depending on the agent, for new investigations I'm
sometimes "heard" as<br>
> witness. And most of the time the meeting is fine.<br>
><br>
> Each time, I explain that my servers are rented in
my name, and that I<br>
> use them for volunteer participation to a free
proxies and VPN network<br>
> called Tor. I then give some details and
explanations about what is Tor,<br>
> who created it, what are the goals of the project
(about protection of<br>
> expression in bad countries and censorship
avoidance, by accessing the<br>
> same Internet that others do, pricacy protection
too), and yes, the<br>
> misuses... and that these are discouraging misuse
and it is not the<br>
> reason why we participate in this network (far from
it !). Then I give<br>
> the IP of those servers (and one of them is the
reason why they called<br>
> me). And I explain that they are computers with a
very fast bandwidth,<br>
> located in datacenters (Rennes, Vitry...) that can
be accessed and<br>
> configured remotely, like a remote desktop.<br>
><br>
> When they ask the question about logs and how to
find the author of the<br>
> fact, my answer is that (unfortunately in that
case), Tor is designed as<br>
> it's not possible for anybody to find who is the IP
address from where<br>
> the traffic originated. It's very secure for those
who need to use it.<br>
> Of course I tell them that if they have suspects in
the entourage of the<br>
> victim, they can check if one of them was connected
to the Tor network<br>
> at the time of the "fact" but as me and others
people are using Tor for<br>
> online privacy without any intention of misuse
against anybody, using<br>
> Tor is not a proof of misuse and is most of the
time not done for bad<br>
> intention. Of course some questioning about a
suspect using Tor at the<br>
> same hour would be rightful in this particular
situation, anyway (like I<br>
> was questioned).<br>
><br>
> All time I also come with a sheet of paper
explaining Tor a little bit<br>
> deeply, what are the motivation of the teams and
people behind this<br>
> project, (even in front of misuses that we are, of
course, not proud of<br>
> having on the Tor network, even if without the Tor
network, those<br>
> misuses would have been done by another way). In
France I<br>
><br>
> Of course sometimes the agent is not very happy
about the Tor Network as<br>
> the investigations is likely to fail because of the
Tor Network<br>
> efficiency. When the misuse is real and obviously
bad, nobody can be<br>
> happy of it !<br>
><br>
> In all those cases, my words are honest and true;
as we shouldn't be<br>
> ashamed of participating to projects aiming to a
better word and more<br>
> freedom, but shouldn't be happy of misuses, my
personal preference is to<br>
> be understanding and true. I also tell them that
I'm participating, with<br>
> my computers, to others scientific projects like
World Community Grid<br>
> (explaining it's about cancer research and a lot of
others subjects) :<br>
> It can be seen as "not related" but it is, as
that's the way we are<br>
> volunteers to the Tor Network !<br>
><br>
><br>
> Here's for my feedback ! It's very personal of
course, I hope nobody<br>
> would copy it without feeling it :) I'm just
expressing my own feeling<br>
> on those situations, if it can help everybody to
better understand those<br>
> cases.<br>
><br>
> Best regards !<br>
><br>
> Julien ROBIN<br>
><br>
><br>
> On 31/10/2016 14:25, Juuso Lapinlampi wrote:<br>
>> Putting the word out: I was interrogated by the
Finnish police today for<br>
>> multiple alleged counts (15+) of identity
crimes, fraud and attempts of<br>
>> fraud. The invitation letter to be interrogated
was sent out on<br>
>> 2016-10-21 and received by me on 2016-10-25.
Today is 2016-10-31.<br>
>><br>
>> The police suspects me because of an
"IP-address assigned to my name",<br>
>> which I can't confirm or deny to have a
relation to me. As a suspect, I<br>
>> was not told what this aclaimed IP-address was
on a specific date to my<br>
>> knowledge. It is only speculation if these
allegations wrongly against<br>
>> me have something to do with my relation with
the Tor community or<br>
>> activism about digital rights online.<br>
>><br>
>> Pending ongoing investigation, I am not allowed
by law to share more<br>
>> specific details about to the investigation.
I'd be glad to reveal more<br>
>> details about the case once the investigation
is over and share/hear how<br>
>> I became a suspect, once I know about it. (Note
that my story is at<br>
>> least slightly opinionated.)<br>
>><br>
>> I had a witness with me and I feel like my
rights were being violated<br>
>> during the interrogation. The officer (not to
be named publicly in<br>
>> respect for privacy) didn't want to allow me to
write down their badge<br>
>> number by taking the badge away from me while
trying to write down the<br>
>> numbers. The officer looked slightly anxious.<br>
>><br>
>> After refusing to comment on few questions (to
which I have a legal<br>
>> right as a suspect), soon after me and my
belongings with me were<br>
>> searched for aclaimed "security reasons" and
"making sure I'm not<br>
>> recording this interrogation (with a phone)".
I'll let you decide on the<br>
>> implications on unwarranted searches and
individual legal protection.<br>
>> (See supreme court decision KKO:1990:36.)<br>
>><br>
>> I audibly and multiple times in calm manner
protested to not consent to<br>
>> searches, but alas it happened against my will
without being suspected<br>
>> of wrongdoing at the police station in front of
my witness. I didn't<br>
>> physically resist but also didn't voluntarily
help the officer.<br>
>><br>
>> The officer asked me inappropriate questions
which were not related to<br>
>> the investigation. I was asked about my
previous involvement with the<br>
>> police, how much I knew about the law and
unsolicited advice about how<br>
>> "it will be easier for me if I talked". I
demanded the officer to write<br>
>> down every question since the beginning of
interrogation to the<br>
>> interrogation minutes, including the
inappropriate ones, but the officer<br>
>> refused, trying to make up a fake reason how
they were "irrelevant".<br>
>><br>
>> The officer raised their voice once or twice
during the 45 minutes of<br>
>> interrogation, apparently angry that I would
not "make a confession" or<br>
>> "help out and tell more" to prove innocence.
Confronting the officer<br>
>> again with a simple question "am I a suspect or
a witness" to confirm my<br>
>> position, I was confirmed again that I was a
suspect in the case. Subtly<br>
>> reminding that "I have my rights" that should
be respected, the officer<br>
>> replied among the lines of "I have my rights
too" with disrespect.<br>
>><br>
>> After the interrogation minutes did not
rightfully represent what was<br>
>> actually questioned, the only sensible thing to
me was to not sign the<br>
>> minutes. The officer after the officer made
threatening claims about how<br>
>> I "would be going to court" over this, but
didn't spend too much effort<br>
>> on trying to get my signature.<br>
>><br>
>> Once the interrogation was concluded, the
officer made an unsolicited<br>
>> comment of "gladly not seeing people like [me]
often". I told that I<br>
>> would be in contact with my lawyers.<br>
>><br>
>> I am glad that I was not detained in a cell or
arrested, which in my<br>
>> opinion I can likely attribute to having a
witness with me. Looking back<br>
>> at what just happened at the police station, I
should have demanded a<br>
>> lawyer immediately to the interrogation after
having my rights violated,<br>
>> but I'm relying on my witness for now to make a
testimony if necessary.<br>
>><br>
>> I repeat that I absolutely deny being guilty of
any suspected crimes. Be<br>
>> safe out there, tor-relays@ and all. (I have
legal support behind me and<br>
>> have never been particularly worried about the
investigation or outcome<br>
>> of this case.)<br>
>><br>
>> Proof of invitation letter:<br>
>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://wubthecaptain.eu/files/legal/2016-10-21-alleged-fraud-identity-crime.jpg"
target="_blank">https://wubthecaptain.eu/files/legal/2016-10-21-alleged-fraud-identity-crime.jpg</a><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> tor-relays mailing list<br>
>> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:tor-relays@lists.torproject.org">tor-relays@lists.torproject.org</a><br>
>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays"
target="_blank">https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays</a><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
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target="_blank">https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays</a><br>
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
tor-relays mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:tor-relays@lists.torproject.org">tor-relays@lists.torproject.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays">https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
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