<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=us-ascii"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 5 Feb 2016, at 21:28, Virgil Griffith <<a href="mailto:i@virgil.gr" class="">i@virgil.gr</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">I withdraw my desire this proposal. In Roster we wouldn't want these /16</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">network families---we just wanted to collapse some relays together when we</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">reliably believe they have the same operator, and there's no reason to</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">believe the majority of relays within a /16 are owned by the same person.</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>There are known cases where relays on the same IP address happen to be using the same provider and external NAT, but have different operators.</div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Ergo, Roster will forgo this kind of merging.</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">-V</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">On Friday, 5 February 2016, Karsten Loesing <</span><a href="mailto:karsten@torproject.org" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">karsten@torproject.org</a><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">> wrote:</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----<br class="">Hash: SHA1<br class=""><br class="">[Removing metrics-team@ to avoid cross posting.]<br class=""><br class="">On 28/01/16 21:22, Tim Wilson-Brown - teor wrote:<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">On 29 Jan 2016, at 07:20, Roman Mamedov <<a href="mailto:rm@romanrm.net" class="">rm@romanrm.net</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><javascript:;>><br class=""></blockquote></blockquote>wrote:<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><br class="">On Fri, 29 Jan 2016 06:33:51 +1100 Tim Wilson-Brown - teor<br class=""><<a href="mailto:teor2345@gmail.com" class="">teor2345@gmail.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><javascript:;>> wrote:<br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">Tor already considers relays in the same IPv4 /16 to be in the<br class="">same family.<br class=""></blockquote><br class="">Maybe a step further in this would be to autoextend manually<br class="">declared families with all relays running on the same IPs of any<br class="">relays in the family. Dunno how complex or how useful this would<br class="">be. It could at least fix-up some outdated or missed<br class="">declarations.<br class=""></blockquote><br class="">In Tor, or OnionOO?<br class=""><br class="">Tor already does this using the IP address whenever a path is<br class="">built. If Tor added it on the relay side, then we'd bloat<br class="">descriptors for no reason.<br class=""></blockquote><br class="">Agreed.<br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">If OnionOO added it, it would save OnionOO clients some work.<br class=""></blockquote><br class="">Let's consider this. I'm pasting current definitions of related<br class="">Onionoo fields here, so that people can follow more easily:<br class=""><br class="">- "effective_family": Array of $-prefixed fingerprints of relays that<br class="">are in an effective, mutual family relationship with this relay. These<br class="">relays are part of this relay's family and they consider this relay to<br class="">be part of their family. Omitted if empty or if descriptor containing<br class="">this information cannot be found.<br class=""><br class="">- "alleged_family": Array of $-prefixed fingerprints of relays that<br class="">are not in an effective, mutual family relationship with this relay.<br class="">These relays are part of this relay's family but they don't consider<br class="">this relay to be part of their family. Omitted if empty or if<br class="">descriptor containing this information cannot be found.<br class=""><br class="">- "indirect_family": Array of $-prefixed fingerprints of relays that<br class="">are not in an effective, mutual family relationship with this relay<br class="">but that can be reached by following effective, mutual family<br class="">relationships starting at this relay. Omitted if empty or if<br class="">descriptor containing this information cannot be found.<br class=""><br class="">Now, from reading this thread I can see us adding or extending the<br class="">following fields:<br class=""><br class="">- Extend "effective_family" to also include relays on the same IP<br class="">address or in the same /16. I'd rather not want to do this, because<br class="">we wouldn't be able to say whether that other relay is in a mutually<br class="">declared family relationship or just runs on a nearby IP address.<br class=""><br class="">- Add new "network_family" field with fingerprints of all relays in<br class="">the same /16. Plausible, but duplicates fingerprints that are already<br class="">in "effective_family".<br class=""><br class="">- Add new "network_family" field with only those fingerprints of<br class="">relays in the same /16 that are not contained in "effective_family".<br class="">"Tor considers these relays to be part of your relay's family, because<br class="">they have similar enough network addresses. If you are running them,<br class="">please consider setting the family option." Plausible, though not<br class="">trivial to grasp without further explanation.<br class=""><br class="">- Add new "extended_network_family" field with fingerprints of relays<br class="">in the same /16 as this relay or relays in "effective_family" and<br class="">"indirect_family", except for fingerprints in those two fields. Also<br class="">plausible for the Roster use case to identify all relays close to the<br class="">family that the user may have omitted in their family definitions.<br class="">Not sure if this is necessary.<br class=""><br class="">- Add new "abandoned_family" field with fingerprints of relays that<br class="">declare this relay to be part of their family but that are not<br class="">contained in this relay's family declaration. Looks like we never<br class="">considered this field before, but it might be useful to help relay<br class="">operators fix their family declarations.<br class=""><br class="">Which of these fields would be useful to have? "All of them" is not a<br class="">good response, because we shouldn't make Onionoo responses bigger if<br class="">nobody uses the new data. But I'm happy to discuss use cases and then<br class="">add new fields as required.<br class=""><br class="">All the best,<br class="">Karsten<br class=""><br class="">-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----<br class="">Comment: GPGTools -<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://gpgtools.org/" class="">http://gpgtools.org</a><br class=""><br class="">iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJWtGubAAoJEJD5dJfVqbCrwDEIAMN/JCYq99J/H3AZKqkt3pLe<br class="">qvWP8uQxBfbnmxwOhOq4IFFCa1o+FpITOxmhZEuxVNGaqszBqSxFpDn62pjK8YCS<br class="">7Wi2IqUoZDIdHwLsJMgfrn+/HH4BoctTu0PzHWsZsmcdjJqPr8R+AP7WRZN3SM2W<br class="">/ML8AULWIwSUVmIfKD3iYM9RbFfxFeCARirDsAxC394z2ei06git4sJA5cSROx35<br class="">9IzqdpPyJoplYBRk7INCmr0bHNXvsIRODQ0n0QIJrIl1ESHpqhsy13fTo/1ndlKR<br class="">BUM2XCao0HABwpdBOrinfpybuGUSPXjrqw8expkUE+w2VuzOdkkNod1J3wgFyXc=<br class="">=KM0S<br class="">-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----<br class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">tor-relays mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:tor-relays@lists.torproject.org" class="">tor-relays@lists.torproject.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><javascript:;><br class=""><a href="https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays" class="">https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays</a><br class=""><br class=""></blockquote><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">_______________________________________________</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">tor-relays mailing list</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><a href="mailto:tor-relays@lists.torproject.org" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">tor-relays@lists.torproject.org</a><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><a href="https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays</a></div></blockquote></div><br class=""><div class="">
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; widows: auto; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; widows: auto; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; widows: auto; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; widows: auto; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; widows: auto; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; widows: auto; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; widows: auto; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; widows: auto; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; widows: auto; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; widows: auto; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; widows: auto; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; widows: auto; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Tim Wilson-Brown (teor)</div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; widows: auto; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; widows: auto; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">teor2345 at gmail dot com<br class="">PGP 968F094B<br class=""><br class="">teor at blah dot im<br class="">OTR CAD08081 9755866D 89E2A06F E3558B7F B5A9D14F</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br class=""></body></html>