<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">I largely agree with Sam, I just want to make some additions, here.<br><br><blockquote type="cite">On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 2:58 PM, Roger Dingledine <<a href="mailto:arma@mit.edu">arma@mit.edu</a>> wrote:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Open questions we need to decide about:<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">1) What exactly would we pay for?<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">As you said, reimbursing users for hosting is probably the best idea<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">here, however, we also don't want to get in the situation where users<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">feel that they _must_ be reimbursed to run an exit relay. What happens<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">if the sponsors funding dries up in a year and no one wants to donate<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">bandwidth anymore?<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Perhaps only registered companies should be sponsored — as much as I<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">hate to limit the scope of the project, I think this (might) prevent<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">abuse to a certain extent. Individuals who wanted to run an exit relay<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">of their own could still do so, they would just have to use some of<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">the money to form an LLC (or whatever their countries equivalent is if<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">the scope of this project extends outside of the US). This gives them<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">a bit more of an incentive to separate their Tor node form their<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">personal server/computing resources (in the form of limited<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">liability), which they should probably be doing anyways.<br></blockquote><br>Please don't forget non profits, like 501(c)3, under which probably many hackerspaces in the US fall or the german e.V., like Zwiebelfreunde e.V., who run <a href="http://torservers.net/">torservers.net</a>. <br>In general this is the right direction to go. I think organizations are most likely to be the most reliable partners for this, and they are easy enough to establish. <br>Organizations have their own accounting, usually donations to them are tax deductible, and they are normally run by more than one person, which allows for a certain scalability by sharing work. Overall, this gives them, and you more transparency and I think, that makes stuff like 501(c)3 or whatever equivalent in any other other country near perfect for everyone involved in this.<br><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">I think we should aim to constrain ourselves to talking about >=100mbit<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">exits<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">I disagree; as others have said, lots of 10mbit relays will do as much<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">for the network as a few 100mbit relays. Most peoples use case is<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">simply checking email, browsing the web, reading news, etc. which<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">don't necessarily need a huge 100mbit relay.<br></blockquote><br>I disagree again. We're on the verge of cheap,affordable 10GBit (as in torservers has just gotten an offer for unlimited traffic 10GBit for $750 with SWIP from a hoster who seems Tor friendly). This means, that 100mbit is getting cheaper and cheaper, as does GBit. 100mbit already comes at a price diadvantage compared to gbit, we don't nead to start on cost-effectiveness of 10mbit, not to mention that many people in the west could run 10mbit nodes from home by now.<br><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">2) Should we fund existing relays or new ones?<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">It's probably not wise to distinguish between the two. If you only<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">fund new relays, you may see a lot of old relays shut down (and then<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">restarted as "new relays" to get funding). So you might as well just<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">sponsor both. More thoughts on this in a bit.<br></blockquote><br>Exactly. <br><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">- Should we prefer big collectives like torservers, noisetor, CCC,<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><a href="http://dfri.se/">dfri.se</a>, and riseup (which can get great bulk rates on bandwidth and are<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">big enough to have relationships with local lawyers and ISPs), or should<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">we prefer individuals since they maximize our operator diversity? I think<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">"explore both approaches" is a fine first plan.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">"Explore both approaches" sounds good; I think we'll find that<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">operator diversity leads to a healthier (more anonymous) network.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Again, I lean towards small guys that will run a few nodes at<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">different data centers, but not Sole proprietorship's.<br></blockquote><br>Maximize diversity, definitely, but do the organizations approach at the same time. Counting in hackerspaces and the existing organizations running Tor nodes should give enough diversity for a start, while going organizations only will (hopefully) encourage more people to establish organizations around Tor.<br><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">- For existing relays who pay for hosting…<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Picking a certain monthly transfer target might solve this; so<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">existing relays that are fast could apply for aid, and it would give<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">slower relays incentive to speed up. The challenge then becomes, where<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">do we set this cutoff? I'm inclined to think it could be kept<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">relatively low and still be very beneficial for the network.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">the Tor network must not end up<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">addicted to external funding. So long as everybody is running an exit<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">relay because they want to save the world, I think we should be fine.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">This is the core of the entire discussion. We might also consider only<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">funding relays in areas where we need the diversity by taking into<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">account…<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">There's network diversity (AS / upstream network topology), organization<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">and operator diversity, jurisdictional (country) diversity, funding<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">diversity, data-center diversity, and more.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">…this stuff.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">7) How do we audit / track the sponsored relays?<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">How should we check that your 100mbit relay is really working? What do<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">we measure to confirm its capacity? To a first approximation I'm fine<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">assuming that nobody is going to try to cheat (say, by colluding with<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">an ISP to write legit-looking invoices but then just split the money).<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Probably better to monitor this carefully from the get-go. Sponsors<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">like to know where their money is going, and continued funding could<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">hinge on it.<br></blockquote>My opinion, too. Sponsors like to see whats going on and they also like to hear from you on a regular basis.<br><br>Julian</body></html>